8 ms·

Zoom Now Worth More Than the World’s 7 Biggest Airlines

45 points by samspenc 6y ago

The_Founder 6y ago
How much longer can anyone be expected to keep it together at this point? A majority of us toil away day in and day out for little reward while the ones at the top play around with many lifetimes worth of wealth like its a game. Money is printed and given away to companies "in need" while we watch the hordes or mentally ill starve and freeze to death in the streets.
yyy888sss 6y ago
Overvalued IMO. I don't find Zoom to be at all differentiated from the many other video call apps from Meet, Teams, Skype, etc. All the enterprise software companies include video meetings in their bundles, why would you pay extra for Zoom?
- nikanj 6y ago
  Because Zoom _works_. I know of multiple companies that pay for Teams due to Big Corp Politics, but still use Zoom because it actually works.
  - nelaboras 6y ago
    jitsi also just works. you might like the servicr, but zoom is definitely overvalued, no question about it.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      Jitsi works reasonably well on PC, but not on mobile. Moreover, Zoom has documentation on how to use it, and Jitsi has none. (They have the stubs for documentation, but the content itself is largely missing. One other thing Zoom has going for it: name recognition. In a crowded market, name recognition is more valuable than the tech.
    - dunefox 6y ago
      Two or so years ago a friend set up Jitsi and RocketChat on his server because 2 friends and I were using Discord for studying for exams and he wanted to try out an open source alternative. It was so bad that we stopped using it immediately and went back to Discord - three people click on a room link, two end up in the same room, one is in an empty room; people kept dropping out every minute; one shared his screen, and while one person could see it, the other couldn't; some people heard others, some didn't; and the installer on Windows was so bugged that one person couldn't even run the desktop version and had to resort to the browser version which had its own problems. Maybe this has improved since but I wouldn't use Shitsi again with Discord as an alternative.
      - trynewideas 6y ago
        > Two or so years ago > Maybe this has improved since Yes.
        dunefox 6y ago
        Great!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 0xy 6y ago
    Google Meet works, and works faster. One URL, click join, bam you're in. Zoom you have to install (and accept that the CCP will steal your IP).
  - swiley 6y ago
    Honestly I’ve used a dozen different conference call apps in the past few months and they all _work_. I still don’t get why zoom is popular, on Linux they want me to install a browser extension just to join a call which is unacceptable when we have webrtc already. IMO it’s one of those situations where some software becomes popular for reasons (marketing? Network effects?) and people just use it because it’s there. No one can shop for software and that’s why we need open protocols.
    - jjeaff 6y ago
      If you think webrtc is a replacement for zoom, then I don't think you have seen what many people are using zoom for. I am unaware of any webrtc implementation that can handle 100 people on a video call. Much less 1,000 or 5,000. Once you get passed a dozen or so video call users in the same meeting, your options diminish quite a bit. I'm not saying zoom is the only option, but there aren't just tons of easy to use options that do that well.
- aphextron 6y ago
  >"All the enterprise software companies include video meetings in their bundles, why would you pay extra for Zoom?" Network effect. Zoom adoption has reached critical mass. Why does anyone pay for Slack when IRC is free? It's what everyone else is doing.
  - Exmoor 6y ago
    The network effect cuts both ways here. Why pay extra for Zoom when you are already invested in Office 365? The ability to invite external participants to join a call via web browser limits the friction getting people to join calls on unfamiliar systems.
    - vinni2 6y ago
      You can also invite external participants via browser in Teams. Only downside of Teams is that it only shows 4 recent speakers’ video feed.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  Everyone is still catching up to Zoom's features; many companies still don't have background replacement, or can't take as many simultaneous users.
  - ta17711771 6y ago
    Except Jitsi, you mean?
  - mindfulplay 6y ago
    This is really fascinating. Continuing along the comparison with airplane stocks: On one hand you have companies that keep flying chairs in the sky filled with people, feeding them every few hours migrating them across continents. On the other hand, I have a company that can replace my crappy apt bedroom with a fake office background. Fascinating that VC funded madness has gotten to this point - prioritizing CTRs, engagement, growth rates and so on.
    - TAForObvReasons 6y ago
      Business travel is a large part of airline profits. If people believe many of those business trips will be replaced with Zoom video conferences on a permanent basis, then you would expect Zoom to see increasing revenues and airlines to see permanently impaired revenue.
    - mewpmewp2 6y ago
      This is pretty much caveman/child logic though. You can make anything sound anything speaking like that ignoring all the complexities involved and actual value provided.
      - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
        As an IT professional, I can know that operating Zoom (out any other similar service) is orders of magnitudes easier than an airline. For one, having catastrophic bugs means to send a "sorry" mail to your users. And maybe fix them. Such bugs on a plane mean death of people. It is similar to suddenly not having wings. And they are back, but half of the cabine is gone. And suddenly no more plane, you are kindly asked to flap your arms.
mwkurian 6y ago
Zoom P/E ratio is 2k+. Seems overvalued?
- perl4ever 6y ago
  Compared to what? Plenty of companies are losing money and are highly valued, which is kind of like having a P/E that is greater than ∞.
  - lugged 6y ago
    Reality?
  - mewpmewp2 6y ago
    It's actually p/e in the negatives. Anyway people should stop using it as some kind of god metric. It is easy to justify cases where large or negative p/e makes sense.
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      I read once that there are negative absolute temperatures defined such that all negative numbers are (in a way) greater than all positive ones.[1] That is, the temperatures below absolute zero are actually hotter than +infinity. It seems reasonable to look at negative p/e numbers in a bit of a similar way, as being beyond infinity on a scale. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature
rvz 6y ago
The question is how long can Zoom keep this up and when will it start to go downhill, even when the airline industry starts to recover (if they can recover). In both cases, What goes up, must come down.
Exmoor 6y ago
Hats off to Zoom. Someday I hope we get a post-mortem from someone with a hand in the technologies they're using to scale. 3 months ago I think 90+% of the population had never heard of them and now it's a household name. Three months ago I would've probably bet every dollar I had against a company in their position being able to fairly-reliably scale exponentially to meet an unforeseen circumstance. I'm curious to see if they can ride this into long term success.
pcurve 6y ago
Shopify has market cap of $82 billion. Is it sustainable?
- wtfno009887466 6y ago
  Seems overvalued imo
0xy 6y ago
If you use this as a company, you should assume that the CCP will have direct access to your confidential discussions and IP given their atrocious security record and extensive ties to China. If ANY company has extensive ties to China, they are under full influence of the CCP. You literally cannot operate in China without this influence at any sort of scale. Zoom is developed almost entirely in China. The CCP has policies that systematically steal intellectual property for use in Chinese companies. If they can intercept your IP, they'll steal it and give it to Chinese competitors.
- myopenid 6y ago
  Ok
  - ta17711771 6y ago
    Your history leads the reader to believe you're being sarcastic. Yet, many entrepreneurs here have echoed the same sentiment over the years Consider that it's not a campaign.
    - myopenid 6y ago
      Hackernews is predominantly White/West, of course the sentiment leans in that direction. Anyway, everyone acts in their best interests.
      - 0xy 6y ago
        China's largest telecommunications company was indicted under RICO charges for systematically stealing US trade secrets and IP, and similarly the CCP has a long history of directly endorsing and supporting such behavior. By some estimates, they steal $600bn of US trade secrets on an annual basis. In fact, hackers associated with the CCP government have been detected hacking and stealing such materials on behalf of Chinese competitors. Why would anyone trust Zoom? Do you think the CCP has no influence on a company's technology being almost entirely developed in China?
bawolff 6y ago
Yet again proving that nobody cares if your product is a security disaster.
seesawtron 6y ago
Can someone be so kind to explain how is the market worth of a company calculated? Is it based on (1) the number of users (2) how much capital gets invested in it with purchase of shares? ..? I just find it hard to grasp the idea that an app can "be worth" more than 7 largest airlines combined; because I do not clearly understand how the worth is being calculated.
- thoughtstheseus 6y ago
  Worth, as from the article is market capitalization. Market Capitalization is shares outstanding times price per share. Price per share is the price at which shares of that company trade at. You could also look at enterprise value which is market cap + net debt for a better view of size. In the investment markets people frequently joke about how poor airlines are for an investment. Many of them don’t even own their own planes because they do not make enough money to use the depreciation.
naveen99 6y ago
Interesting all the cons have much less karma than the pros on this topic as of now.
naveen99 6y ago
Do the airlines have an api ? zoom does : https://marketplace.zoom.us/docs/api-reference/zoom-api https://marketplace.zoom.us/docs/api-reference/zoom-api How many yc startups will be enabled with it ?

45 points by samspenc 6y ago

How much longer can anyone be expected to keep it together at this point? A majority of us toil away day in and day out for little reward while the ones at the top play around with many lifetimes worth of wealth like its a game. Money is printed and given away to companies "in need" while we watch the hordes or mentally ill starve and freeze to death in the streets.

yyy888sss 6y ago

Overvalued IMO. I don't find Zoom to be at all differentiated from the many other video call apps from Meet, Teams, Skype, etc. All the enterprise software companies include video meetings in their bundles, why would you pay extra for Zoom?

nikanj 6y ago
Because Zoom _works_. I know of multiple companies that pay for Teams due to Big Corp Politics, but still use Zoom because it actually works.
- nelaboras 6y ago
  jitsi also just works. you might like the servicr, but zoom is definitely overvalued, no question about it.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    Jitsi works reasonably well on PC, but not on mobile. Moreover, Zoom has documentation on how to use it, and Jitsi has none. (They have the stubs for documentation, but the content itself is largely missing. One other thing Zoom has going for it: name recognition. In a crowded market, name recognition is more valuable than the tech.
  - dunefox 6y ago
    Two or so years ago a friend set up Jitsi and RocketChat on his server because 2 friends and I were using Discord for studying for exams and he wanted to try out an open source alternative. It was so bad that we stopped using it immediately and went back to Discord - three people click on a room link, two end up in the same room, one is in an empty room; people kept dropping out every minute; one shared his screen, and while one person could see it, the other couldn't; some people heard others, some didn't; and the installer on Windows was so bugged that one person couldn't even run the desktop version and had to resort to the browser version which had its own problems. Maybe this has improved since but I wouldn't use Shitsi again with Discord as an alternative.
    - trynewideas 6y ago
      > Two or so years ago > Maybe this has improved since Yes.
      - dunefox 6y ago
        Great!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 0xy 6y ago
  Google Meet works, and works faster. One URL, click join, bam you're in. Zoom you have to install (and accept that the CCP will steal your IP).
- swiley 6y ago
  Honestly I’ve used a dozen different conference call apps in the past few months and they all _work_. I still don’t get why zoom is popular, on Linux they want me to install a browser extension just to join a call which is unacceptable when we have webrtc already. IMO it’s one of those situations where some software becomes popular for reasons (marketing? Network effects?) and people just use it because it’s there. No one can shop for software and that’s why we need open protocols.
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    If you think webrtc is a replacement for zoom, then I don't think you have seen what many people are using zoom for. I am unaware of any webrtc implementation that can handle 100 people on a video call. Much less 1,000 or 5,000. Once you get passed a dozen or so video call users in the same meeting, your options diminish quite a bit. I'm not saying zoom is the only option, but there aren't just tons of easy to use options that do that well.
aphextron 6y ago
>"All the enterprise software companies include video meetings in their bundles, why would you pay extra for Zoom?" Network effect. Zoom adoption has reached critical mass. Why does anyone pay for Slack when IRC is free? It's what everyone else is doing.
- Exmoor 6y ago
  The network effect cuts both ways here. Why pay extra for Zoom when you are already invested in Office 365? The ability to invite external participants to join a call via web browser limits the friction getting people to join calls on unfamiliar systems.
  - vinni2 6y ago
    You can also invite external participants via browser in Teams. Only downside of Teams is that it only shows 4 recent speakers’ video feed.
threatofrain 6y ago
Everyone is still catching up to Zoom's features; many companies still don't have background replacement, or can't take as many simultaneous users.
- ta17711771 6y ago
  Except Jitsi, you mean?
- mindfulplay 6y ago
  This is really fascinating. Continuing along the comparison with airplane stocks: On one hand you have companies that keep flying chairs in the sky filled with people, feeding them every few hours migrating them across continents. On the other hand, I have a company that can replace my crappy apt bedroom with a fake office background. Fascinating that VC funded madness has gotten to this point - prioritizing CTRs, engagement, growth rates and so on.
  - TAForObvReasons 6y ago
    Business travel is a large part of airline profits. If people believe many of those business trips will be replaced with Zoom video conferences on a permanent basis, then you would expect Zoom to see increasing revenues and airlines to see permanently impaired revenue.
  - mewpmewp2 6y ago
    This is pretty much caveman/child logic though. You can make anything sound anything speaking like that ignoring all the complexities involved and actual value provided.
    - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
      As an IT professional, I can know that operating Zoom (out any other similar service) is orders of magnitudes easier than an airline. For one, having catastrophic bugs means to send a "sorry" mail to your users. And maybe fix them. Such bugs on a plane mean death of people. It is similar to suddenly not having wings. And they are back, but half of the cabine is gone. And suddenly no more plane, you are kindly asked to flap your arms.

mwkurian 6y ago

Zoom P/E ratio is 2k+. Seems overvalued?

perl4ever 6y ago
Compared to what? Plenty of companies are losing money and are highly valued, which is kind of like having a P/E that is greater than ∞.
- lugged 6y ago
  Reality?
- mewpmewp2 6y ago
  It's actually p/e in the negatives. Anyway people should stop using it as some kind of god metric. It is easy to justify cases where large or negative p/e makes sense.
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    I read once that there are negative absolute temperatures defined such that all negative numbers are (in a way) greater than all positive ones.[1] That is, the temperatures below absolute zero are actually hotter than +infinity. It seems reasonable to look at negative p/e numbers in a bit of a similar way, as being beyond infinity on a scale. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature

rvz 6y ago

The question is how long can Zoom keep this up and when will it start to go downhill, even when the airline industry starts to recover (if they can recover). In both cases, What goes up, must come down.

Exmoor 6y ago

Hats off to Zoom. Someday I hope we get a post-mortem from someone with a hand in the technologies they're using to scale. 3 months ago I think 90+% of the population had never heard of them and now it's a household name. Three months ago I would've probably bet every dollar I had against a company in their position being able to fairly-reliably scale exponentially to meet an unforeseen circumstance. I'm curious to see if they can ride this into long term success.

pcurve 6y ago

Shopify has market cap of $82 billion. Is it sustainable?

wtfno009887466 6y ago
Seems overvalued imo

0xy 6y ago

If you use this as a company, you should assume that the CCP will have direct access to your confidential discussions and IP given their atrocious security record and extensive ties to China. If ANY company has extensive ties to China, they are under full influence of the CCP. You literally cannot operate in China without this influence at any sort of scale. Zoom is developed almost entirely in China. The CCP has policies that systematically steal intellectual property for use in Chinese companies. If they can intercept your IP, they'll steal it and give it to Chinese competitors.

myopenid 6y ago
Ok
- ta17711771 6y ago
  Your history leads the reader to believe you're being sarcastic. Yet, many entrepreneurs here have echoed the same sentiment over the years Consider that it's not a campaign.
  - myopenid 6y ago
    Hackernews is predominantly White/West, of course the sentiment leans in that direction. Anyway, everyone acts in their best interests.
    - 0xy 6y ago
      China's largest telecommunications company was indicted under RICO charges for systematically stealing US trade secrets and IP, and similarly the CCP has a long history of directly endorsing and supporting such behavior. By some estimates, they steal $600bn of US trade secrets on an annual basis. In fact, hackers associated with the CCP government have been detected hacking and stealing such materials on behalf of Chinese competitors. Why would anyone trust Zoom? Do you think the CCP has no influence on a company's technology being almost entirely developed in China?

bawolff 6y ago

Yet again proving that nobody cares if your product is a security disaster.

seesawtron 6y ago

Can someone be so kind to explain how is the market worth of a company calculated? Is it based on (1) the number of users (2) how much capital gets invested in it with purchase of shares? ..? I just find it hard to grasp the idea that an app can "be worth" more than 7 largest airlines combined; because I do not clearly understand how the worth is being calculated.

thoughtstheseus 6y ago
Worth, as from the article is market capitalization. Market Capitalization is shares outstanding times price per share. Price per share is the price at which shares of that company trade at. You could also look at enterprise value which is market cap + net debt for a better view of size. In the investment markets people frequently joke about how poor airlines are for an investment. Many of them don’t even own their own planes because they do not make enough money to use the depreciation.

naveen99 6y ago

Interesting all the cons have much less karma than the pros on this topic as of now.

naveen99 6y ago

Do the airlines have an api ? zoom does : https://marketplace.zoom.us/docs/api-reference/zoom-api https://marketplace.zoom.us/docs/api-reference/zoom-api How many yc startups will be enabled with it ?