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I tried to find a common point of agreement. Thanks for calling it a cargo-cult. And why did you say everyone has a personal agenda? > accuse people of makin

by ColanR 6y ago

I tried to find a common point of agreement. Thanks for calling it a cargo-cult. And why did you say everyone has a personal agenda? > accuse people of making decisions in bad faith but it's weak in these circumstances when the ship sailed a long time ago > I can't help with trying to guess whether someone is an evil supervillain or not based on some ancient mailing list posts. It was done in bad faith; you haven't denied that, and I don't like the idea of a primary programmer of one of the biggest pieces of open source OS software having a history of operating in bad faith. Do you? > it's variations on the same old flame wars about Linux vs BSD vs Solaris vs MacOS vs everything else, just burning and burning, forever Sounds like you're trying to discredit the whole argument without anwering it. > Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? I can actually help you with that... Thanks; as you said, the ship has sailed and I don't do anything complicated with systemd distros anymore. The system is too complicated for me to work with. Any time something goes wrong, I have to search online for solutions, or ask for help. I would love to use gnome shell with an alternative, but it's not possible. Systemd hangs on shutdowns and startups: if you install ubuntu server while connected to the internet, then forever after if its not online during boot it will hang for 1:30 minutes (unless you google for the systemd incantation to solve it). On openbsd, I've rewritten the startup script to avoid mounting half the filesystem when I was doing a network boot - didn't have to do anything to figure it out, except watch the boot sequence and open the script. That would have been impossible in systemd. So no, I'm not talking about some cron job inconvenience. As TFA pointed out, there's a disconnect between "professional" linux and "enthusiast" linux. That disconnect can probably be attributed to the influence of Red Hat and systemd, and it means that I can't learn the OS anymore. It's completely opaque.

cycloptic 6y ago
I'm sorry I really don't buy this. I don't care to debate if something was done in good or bad faith, or take pot shots at some company for developing software that happens to be popular. That discussion is irrelevant to either of us. It is absurd to claim that someone is acting in bad faith towards you personally just because you take some personal issue with the level of complexity in their code. And if you're really going to take that tact then it's even more absurd to single out systemd for this behavior when this entire industry is growing constantly and making more and more complicated code by the day because everyone wants a piece of this pie. Have you reported that bug upstream to either ubuntu or systemd? And if OpenBSD works for you then what's the problem? I could help you navigate the complexity and tell you how to get GNOME working on non-systemd machines, or workaround the boot hanging. I learned these things by reading distro news, mailing lists, bug reports, and the manpages, all things that are readily available to you to. Will you listen? Do you want help, or are you just here to complain about personal grudges towards people who have made it very clear since the beginning that they've never considered you to be in their target audience at all? I get that you feel slighted by that but you do realize that it's not personal right? And if you're wondering why I'm dismissing things it's because this isn't constructive and I've seen this type of angle taken repeatedly, nothing good comes of it. We aren't going to get anything done by debating what fits a vague definition of "good engineering" or by debating the motivations of someone who isn't even here. And if you said that you know any programmers without a personal agenda then I would say that you're lying. Sorry if that sounds rude but everyone has their own personal goals. The OpenBSD developers do, the author of this blog post does, Red Hat does, you do, I do. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't let this fact bother you or affect your own decisions in a negative way.
- ColanR 6y ago
  > I don't care to debate if something was done in good or bad faith You were willing earlier, before you couldn't make your case anymore. > It is absurd to claim that someone is acting in bad faith towards you personally Did not say that. > And if OpenBSD works for you then what's the problem? You're ignoring my point: a contrast between OpenBSD and systemd. OpenBSD is simple enough that I performed some fundamental alterations to the boot process without having to reference more than the man pages; contrast with systemd, where such alterations would be nearly impossible. > I learned these things by reading distro news, mailing lists, bug reports, and the manpages, all things that are readily available to you to. Will you listen? Do you want help... Wow. That's some impressive condescension. Sounds like you're assuming I don't read manpages, bug reports, mailing lists, etc. - I do. Why did you assume otherwise? Why did you assume that I'm unwilling to listen? > Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? > are you just here to complain You asked me for specific issues - remember? I told you, and now you're calling me out for complaining. > Will you listen? Do you want help, or are you just here to complain...I get that you feel slighted by that but you do realize that it's not personal right? You seem to be attempting to make me out as having a personal grudge/slight, and thereby discredit what I have to say. > We aren't going to get anything done by debating what fits a vague definition of "good engineering" I was intentionally vague, because I was trying to create a high level categorization we could use to avoid talking past each other. As I said at the time. > And if you said that you know any programmers without a personal agenda Again, words in my mouth. > We aren't going to get anything done by debating the motivations of someone who isn't even here. > everyone has their own personal goals...There's nothing wrong with that. I expressed issue with how he is going about his agenda/goals, and with what they are; not with the fact he had them. As I said already, it is abundantly clear from what he said that he is going about his goals in bad faith.
  - cycloptic 6y ago
    >OpenBSD is simple enough that I performed some fundamental alterations to the boot process without having to reference more than the man pages; contrast with systemd, where such alterations would be nearly impossible. Then use OpenBSD? What's the problem? You know it has a GNOME port? And you do know that it's still trivial to install your own init in Linux, and that you can use elogind on any of them to get GNOME to work? >Why did you assume otherwise? Why did you assume that I'm unwilling to listen? I assumed nothing and I'm not trying condescend you. I asked you a question. I'll ask it again in a different way: Do you want help or not? I was able to figure these things out and I didn't find it complicated at all, maybe I'm just reading different things than you are? I really don't know. But I think you're wrong in what you said earlier, this is not an nearly impossible problem. And it actually gets easier if we help each other, instead of arguing about some absent person's motivations. >it is abundantly clear from what he said that he is going about his goals in bad faith. I could make the same accusation towards you because you seem to be repeatedly trying to discredit some person who isn't even here when it's really not relevant to this discussion at all. Unless of course the goal from the beginning was to discredit someone. In that case, this discussion is over, because like I said earlier, I don't care, none of these people had any "credit" to me to begin with and it doesn't really matter to either of us where someone's "faith" lies. I'm not making that accusation though and I'm not putting words in your mouth, and I don't fault you personally for anything. I was going to try to take those mailing list statements at face value but I just don't think you will be convinced by that after reading TFA. Let it sit for a while, then maybe we can talk about something constructive like how to move forward? I don't know, it's up to you.

by ColanR 6y ago

cycloptic 6y ago

I'm sorry I really don't buy this. I don't care to debate if something was done in good or bad faith, or take pot shots at some company for developing software that happens to be popular. That discussion is irrelevant to either of us. It is absurd to claim that someone is acting in bad faith towards you personally just because you take some personal issue with the level of complexity in their code. And if you're really going to take that tact then it's even more absurd to single out systemd for this behavior when this entire industry is growing constantly and making more and more complicated code by the day because everyone wants a piece of this pie. Have you reported that bug upstream to either ubuntu or systemd? And if OpenBSD works for you then what's the problem? I could help you navigate the complexity and tell you how to get GNOME working on non-systemd machines, or workaround the boot hanging. I learned these things by reading distro news, mailing lists, bug reports, and the manpages, all things that are readily available to you to. Will you listen? Do you want help, or are you just here to complain about personal grudges towards people who have made it very clear since the beginning that they've never considered you to be in their target audience at all? I get that you feel slighted by that but you do realize that it's not personal right? And if you're wondering why I'm dismissing things it's because this isn't constructive and I've seen this type of angle taken repeatedly, nothing good comes of it. We aren't going to get anything done by debating what fits a vague definition of "good engineering" or by debating the motivations of someone who isn't even here. And if you said that you know any programmers without a personal agenda then I would say that you're lying. Sorry if that sounds rude but everyone has their own personal goals. The OpenBSD developers do, the author of this blog post does, Red Hat does, you do, I do. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't let this fact bother you or affect your own decisions in a negative way.

ColanR 6y ago
> I don't care to debate if something was done in good or bad faith You were willing earlier, before you couldn't make your case anymore. > It is absurd to claim that someone is acting in bad faith towards you personally Did not say that. > And if OpenBSD works for you then what's the problem? You're ignoring my point: a contrast between OpenBSD and systemd. OpenBSD is simple enough that I performed some fundamental alterations to the boot process without having to reference more than the man pages; contrast with systemd, where such alterations would be nearly impossible. > I learned these things by reading distro news, mailing lists, bug reports, and the manpages, all things that are readily available to you to. Will you listen? Do you want help... Wow. That's some impressive condescension. Sounds like you're assuming I don't read manpages, bug reports, mailing lists, etc. - I do. Why did you assume otherwise? Why did you assume that I'm unwilling to listen? > Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? > are you just here to complain You asked me for specific issues - remember? I told you, and now you're calling me out for complaining. > Will you listen? Do you want help, or are you just here to complain...I get that you feel slighted by that but you do realize that it's not personal right? You seem to be attempting to make me out as having a personal grudge/slight, and thereby discredit what I have to say. > We aren't going to get anything done by debating what fits a vague definition of "good engineering" I was intentionally vague, because I was trying to create a high level categorization we could use to avoid talking past each other. As I said at the time. > And if you said that you know any programmers without a personal agenda Again, words in my mouth. > We aren't going to get anything done by debating the motivations of someone who isn't even here. > everyone has their own personal goals...There's nothing wrong with that. I expressed issue with how he is going about his agenda/goals, and with what they are; not with the fact he had them. As I said already, it is abundantly clear from what he said that he is going about his goals in bad faith.
- cycloptic 6y ago
  >OpenBSD is simple enough that I performed some fundamental alterations to the boot process without having to reference more than the man pages; contrast with systemd, where such alterations would be nearly impossible. Then use OpenBSD? What's the problem? You know it has a GNOME port? And you do know that it's still trivial to install your own init in Linux, and that you can use elogind on any of them to get GNOME to work? >Why did you assume otherwise? Why did you assume that I'm unwilling to listen? I assumed nothing and I'm not trying condescend you. I asked you a question. I'll ask it again in a different way: Do you want help or not? I was able to figure these things out and I didn't find it complicated at all, maybe I'm just reading different things than you are? I really don't know. But I think you're wrong in what you said earlier, this is not an nearly impossible problem. And it actually gets easier if we help each other, instead of arguing about some absent person's motivations. >it is abundantly clear from what he said that he is going about his goals in bad faith. I could make the same accusation towards you because you seem to be repeatedly trying to discredit some person who isn't even here when it's really not relevant to this discussion at all. Unless of course the goal from the beginning was to discredit someone. In that case, this discussion is over, because like I said earlier, I don't care, none of these people had any "credit" to me to begin with and it doesn't really matter to either of us where someone's "faith" lies. I'm not making that accusation though and I'm not putting words in your mouth, and I don't fault you personally for anything. I was going to try to take those mailing list statements at face value but I just don't think you will be convinced by that after reading TFA. Let it sit for a while, then maybe we can talk about something constructive like how to move forward? I don't know, it's up to you.