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> were somehow tricked into this proposition even though it was clearly stated 10 years ago? Tricked? Please don't put words into my mouth. You're right; tech

by ColanR 6y ago

> were somehow tricked into this proposition even though it was clearly stated 10 years ago? Tricked? Please don't put words into my mouth. You're right; technically, this email doesn't indicate he's forcing anyone. What it does say, though, is that he has his own agenda, and instead of trying to achieve consensus, he's intentionally making disagreement difficult while he forges ahead irrespective of that disagreement. To me, that represents disrespect for anyone who disagrees, and he's certainly not soliciting others' input. --- From reading some of the disagreements about systemd, it seems like there's two primary points of contention. 1. Whether or not systemd represents good engineering. For example, "it makes things super easy for sysadmins" vs. "it breaks things in weird ways", or "tight integration is awesome" vs. "muh Unix philosophy". 2. Whether or not systemd was introduced in good faith. Does that sound like a decent categorization? At the very least, it would help us not talk past each other.

cycloptic 6y ago
I'm not putting words into your mouth. I asked if that was what you meant. It's reasonable for you to say no and then clarify. There is no such thing as a programmer without a personal agenda. You can cargo-cult the idea of "good engineering" and accuse people of making decisions in bad faith but it's weak in these circumstances when the ship sailed a long time ago and TFA already rants about enough related to this topic. Who cares? If you ask me nothing has changed, it's variations on the same old flame wars about Linux vs BSD vs Solaris vs MacOS vs everything else, just burning and burning, forever. Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? I can actually help you with that, I can't help with trying to guess whether someone is an evil supervillain or not based on some ancient mailing list posts.
- ColanR 6y ago
  I tried to find a common point of agreement. Thanks for calling it a cargo-cult. And why did you say everyone has a personal agenda? > accuse people of making decisions in bad faith but it's weak in these circumstances when the ship sailed a long time ago > I can't help with trying to guess whether someone is an evil supervillain or not based on some ancient mailing list posts. It was done in bad faith; you haven't denied that, and I don't like the idea of a primary programmer of one of the biggest pieces of open source OS software having a history of operating in bad faith. Do you? > it's variations on the same old flame wars about Linux vs BSD vs Solaris vs MacOS vs everything else, just burning and burning, forever Sounds like you're trying to discredit the whole argument without anwering it. > Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? I can actually help you with that... Thanks; as you said, the ship has sailed and I don't do anything complicated with systemd distros anymore. The system is too complicated for me to work with. Any time something goes wrong, I have to search online for solutions, or ask for help. I would love to use gnome shell with an alternative, but it's not possible. Systemd hangs on shutdowns and startups: if you install ubuntu server while connected to the internet, then forever after if its not online during boot it will hang for 1:30 minutes (unless you google for the systemd incantation to solve it). On openbsd, I've rewritten the startup script to avoid mounting half the filesystem when I was doing a network boot - didn't have to do anything to figure it out, except watch the boot sequence and open the script. That would have been impossible in systemd. So no, I'm not talking about some cron job inconvenience. As TFA pointed out, there's a disconnect between "professional" linux and "enthusiast" linux. That disconnect can probably be attributed to the influence of Red Hat and systemd, and it means that I can't learn the OS anymore. It's completely opaque.
  - cycloptic 6y ago
    I'm sorry I really don't buy this. I don't care to debate if something was done in good or bad faith, or take pot shots at some company for developing software that happens to be popular. That discussion is irrelevant to either of us. It is absurd to claim that someone is acting in bad faith towards you personally just because you take some personal issue with the level of complexity in their code. And if you're really going to take that tact then it's even more absurd to single out systemd for this behavior when this entire industry is growing constantly and making more and more complicated code by the day because everyone wants a piece of this pie. Have you reported that bug upstream to either ubuntu or systemd? And if OpenBSD works for you then what's the problem? I could help you navigate the complexity and tell you how to get GNOME working on non-systemd machines, or workaround the boot hanging. I learned these things by reading distro news, mailing lists, bug reports, and the manpages, all things that are readily available to you to. Will you listen? Do you want help, or are you just here to complain about personal grudges towards people who have made it very clear since the beginning that they've never considered you to be in their target audience at all? I get that you feel slighted by that but you do realize that it's not personal right? And if you're wondering why I'm dismissing things it's because this isn't constructive and I've seen this type of angle taken repeatedly, nothing good comes of it. We aren't going to get anything done by debating what fits a vague definition of "good engineering" or by debating the motivations of someone who isn't even here. And if you said that you know any programmers without a personal agenda then I would say that you're lying. Sorry if that sounds rude but everyone has their own personal goals. The OpenBSD developers do, the author of this blog post does, Red Hat does, you do, I do. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't let this fact bother you or affect your own decisions in a negative way.
    - ColanR 6y ago
      > I don't care to debate if something was done in good or bad faith You were willing earlier, before you couldn't make your case anymore. > It is absurd to claim that someone is acting in bad faith towards you personally Did not say that. > And if OpenBSD works for you then what's the problem? You're ignoring my point: a contrast between OpenBSD and systemd. OpenBSD is simple enough that I performed some fundamental alterations to the boot process without having to reference more than the man pages; contrast with systemd, where such alterations would be nearly impossible. > I learned these things by reading distro news, mailing lists, bug reports, and the manpages, all things that are readily available to you to. Will you listen? Do you want help... Wow. That's some impressive condescension. Sounds like you're assuming I don't read manpages, bug reports, mailing lists, etc. - I do. Why did you assume otherwise? Why did you assume that I'm unwilling to listen? > Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? > are you just here to complain You asked me for specific issues - remember? I told you, and now you're calling me out for complaining. > Will you listen? Do you want help, or are you just here to complain...I get that you feel slighted by that but you do realize that it's not personal right? You seem to be attempting to make me out as having a personal grudge/slight, and thereby discredit what I have to say. > We aren't going to get anything done by debating what fits a vague definition of "good engineering" I was intentionally vague, because I was trying to create a high level categorization we could use to avoid talking past each other. As I said at the time. > And if you said that you know any programmers without a personal agenda Again, words in my mouth. > We aren't going to get anything done by debating the motivations of someone who isn't even here. > everyone has their own personal goals...There's nothing wrong with that. I expressed issue with how he is going about his agenda/goals, and with what they are; not with the fact he had them. As I said already, it is abundantly clear from what he said that he is going about his goals in bad faith.

by ColanR 6y ago

cycloptic 6y ago

I'm not putting words into your mouth. I asked if that was what you meant. It's reasonable for you to say no and then clarify. There is no such thing as a programmer without a personal agenda. You can cargo-cult the idea of "good engineering" and accuse people of making decisions in bad faith but it's weak in these circumstances when the ship sailed a long time ago and TFA already rants about enough related to this topic. Who cares? If you ask me nothing has changed, it's variations on the same old flame wars about Linux vs BSD vs Solaris vs MacOS vs everything else, just burning and burning, forever. Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? I can actually help you with that, I can't help with trying to guess whether someone is an evil supervillain or not based on some ancient mailing list posts.

ColanR 6y ago
I tried to find a common point of agreement. Thanks for calling it a cargo-cult. And why did you say everyone has a personal agenda? > accuse people of making decisions in bad faith but it's weak in these circumstances when the ship sailed a long time ago > I can't help with trying to guess whether someone is an evil supervillain or not based on some ancient mailing list posts. It was done in bad faith; you haven't denied that, and I don't like the idea of a primary programmer of one of the biggest pieces of open source OS software having a history of operating in bad faith. Do you? > it's variations on the same old flame wars about Linux vs BSD vs Solaris vs MacOS vs everything else, just burning and burning, forever Sounds like you're trying to discredit the whole argument without anwering it. > Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? I can actually help you with that... Thanks; as you said, the ship has sailed and I don't do anything complicated with systemd distros anymore. The system is too complicated for me to work with. Any time something goes wrong, I have to search online for solutions, or ask for help. I would love to use gnome shell with an alternative, but it's not possible. Systemd hangs on shutdowns and startups: if you install ubuntu server while connected to the internet, then forever after if its not online during boot it will hang for 1:30 minutes (unless you google for the systemd incantation to solve it). On openbsd, I've rewritten the startup script to avoid mounting half the filesystem when I was doing a network boot - didn't have to do anything to figure it out, except watch the boot sequence and open the script. That would have been impossible in systemd. So no, I'm not talking about some cron job inconvenience. As TFA pointed out, there's a disconnect between "professional" linux and "enthusiast" linux. That disconnect can probably be attributed to the influence of Red Hat and systemd, and it means that I can't learn the OS anymore. It's completely opaque.
- cycloptic 6y ago
  I'm sorry I really don't buy this. I don't care to debate if something was done in good or bad faith, or take pot shots at some company for developing software that happens to be popular. That discussion is irrelevant to either of us. It is absurd to claim that someone is acting in bad faith towards you personally just because you take some personal issue with the level of complexity in their code. And if you're really going to take that tact then it's even more absurd to single out systemd for this behavior when this entire industry is growing constantly and making more and more complicated code by the day because everyone wants a piece of this pie. Have you reported that bug upstream to either ubuntu or systemd? And if OpenBSD works for you then what's the problem? I could help you navigate the complexity and tell you how to get GNOME working on non-systemd machines, or workaround the boot hanging. I learned these things by reading distro news, mailing lists, bug reports, and the manpages, all things that are readily available to you to. Will you listen? Do you want help, or are you just here to complain about personal grudges towards people who have made it very clear since the beginning that they've never considered you to be in their target audience at all? I get that you feel slighted by that but you do realize that it's not personal right? And if you're wondering why I'm dismissing things it's because this isn't constructive and I've seen this type of angle taken repeatedly, nothing good comes of it. We aren't going to get anything done by debating what fits a vague definition of "good engineering" or by debating the motivations of someone who isn't even here. And if you said that you know any programmers without a personal agenda then I would say that you're lying. Sorry if that sounds rude but everyone has their own personal goals. The OpenBSD developers do, the author of this blog post does, Red Hat does, you do, I do. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't let this fact bother you or affect your own decisions in a negative way.
  - ColanR 6y ago
    > I don't care to debate if something was done in good or bad faith You were willing earlier, before you couldn't make your case anymore. > It is absurd to claim that someone is acting in bad faith towards you personally Did not say that. > And if OpenBSD works for you then what's the problem? You're ignoring my point: a contrast between OpenBSD and systemd. OpenBSD is simple enough that I performed some fundamental alterations to the boot process without having to reference more than the man pages; contrast with systemd, where such alterations would be nearly impossible. > I learned these things by reading distro news, mailing lists, bug reports, and the manpages, all things that are readily available to you to. Will you listen? Do you want help... Wow. That's some impressive condescension. Sounds like you're assuming I don't read manpages, bug reports, mailing lists, etc. - I do. Why did you assume otherwise? Why did you assume that I'm unwilling to listen? > Do you have an actual issue with the code that needs solving? > are you just here to complain You asked me for specific issues - remember? I told you, and now you're calling me out for complaining. > Will you listen? Do you want help, or are you just here to complain...I get that you feel slighted by that but you do realize that it's not personal right? You seem to be attempting to make me out as having a personal grudge/slight, and thereby discredit what I have to say. > We aren't going to get anything done by debating what fits a vague definition of "good engineering" I was intentionally vague, because I was trying to create a high level categorization we could use to avoid talking past each other. As I said at the time. > And if you said that you know any programmers without a personal agenda Again, words in my mouth. > We aren't going to get anything done by debating the motivations of someone who isn't even here. > everyone has their own personal goals...There's nothing wrong with that. I expressed issue with how he is going about his agenda/goals, and with what they are; not with the fact he had them. As I said already, it is abundantly clear from what he said that he is going about his goals in bad faith.