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> or are you asserting that large team game dev is unique compared to other industries? Well, that would be a good question to ask to the author, since he titl

> or are you asserting that large team game dev is unique compared to other industries? Well, that would be a good question to ask to the author, since he titled the article "modern C++ gamedev" and not simply "modern C++" although to me what is discussed seems to be general enough, and "gamedev" here happens to be just the type of project the code comes from... To me, it does not look like he makes any significant contribution on how "modern C++ could serve specifically games development". IMHO he has detected that people in games react strongly to content about C++ and he benefits from the additional exposure he gets by putting "gamedev" in his C++ articles/tweets/anything (which is something I am not judging btw). Personally, I do think that when your code is simulating a whole parallel universe using a not-super-high-level language, you might end up with challenges regarding readability and flexibility of the raw code that other softwares might not encounter. Not being really part of that industry I feel I can't know for sure, and therefore I have applied the same reasoning to him since he is also not part of that industry, it seems.

humanrebar 6y ago
I have experience with large scale high performance C++, albeit not in games specifically. The recommendations in my experience are very sane, conservative even. I think at this point the onus is on critics to substantially respond to the points given. I don't think questioning credentials is particularly elucidating here. I don't see any reason the entire thesis of the article is flawed. As to the throwaway reference to gamedev, the article is in response to shade thrown by gamedevs, attempting to concede specific concerns and propose solutions.
- eska 6y ago
  That's the thing though. Gamedevs aren't throwing shade, it's a strawman. Look at the twitter threas mentioned in the introduction and you'll see a bunch of civil gamedev industry veterans offering constructive criticism, only to be shut down with "that's misguided" and no counter argument. It gets old fast and it's been like this for dozens of years. I'm not surprised that they stop caring.
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    If you are making the point that Twitter arguments are counterproductive, I agree. I will concede all objections about tone because my life is too short to get dragged into Twitter tone policing. I do find the recommendations interesting and would like to keep the conversation about them. I would especially like to avoid gatekeeping and No True Scotsman arguments in a thread about code.
    - eska 6y ago
      No, I did not make the point that Twitter arguments are counterproductive at all o the contrary this one looks very productive EXCEPT for the author. So now you're straw manning me as well, then say I'm gatekeeping and no true-scotsmanning. I don't appreciate that all and am therefore out.
      - humanrebar 6y ago
        - winterismute questioned qualifications to have a position on writing C++ for game dev. That is gatekeeping and No True Scotsman. - At least someone on Twitter called some tweets "retarded", etc., so OP thought to continue the conversation by ignoring nonsense and restating concerns in a healthier tone. This post is his attempt to be productive, apparently. - Any perceived slight against you, you have inferred. No offense intended. - Perhaps HN discussions are only marginally better than Twitter if people can't avoid making discussions about fold operators personally.
        winterismute 6y ago
        > winterismute questioned qualifications to have a position on writing C++ for game dev. That is gatekeeping and No True Scotsman Well, not really. Some of the people on twitter (and the author himself) basically pointed out that "one of the main reason we do not use that coding style is that, despite the advantages, when you need to work on a codebase that requires both performant simulation of the planet and rapid experimentation of mechanics at the same time by hundreds of de-localized devs, you end up seeing many of its limitations". If you want to handle this argument, you need to have a clear idea of what are the priorities in such a scenario, which I doubt the author has. Even more interestingly, the article does not raise the point "this is how I write modern C++, I think it will benefit all the industries" but specifically seems to want to argue that this style helps gamedev particularly despite showing basically no domain-specific observations, nor anything that convinces me he knows what are the critical problems in the "triple A game" scenario... I don't think I can call this gatekeeping if I am not convinced - even by reading only the article - that the author has a good grasp of the fundamental problems involved in the development of big games, or not?

humanrebar 6y ago

I have experience with large scale high performance C++, albeit not in games specifically. The recommendations in my experience are very sane, conservative even. I think at this point the onus is on critics to substantially respond to the points given. I don't think questioning credentials is particularly elucidating here. I don't see any reason the entire thesis of the article is flawed. As to the throwaway reference to gamedev, the article is in response to shade thrown by gamedevs, attempting to concede specific concerns and propose solutions.

eska 6y ago
That's the thing though. Gamedevs aren't throwing shade, it's a strawman. Look at the twitter threas mentioned in the introduction and you'll see a bunch of civil gamedev industry veterans offering constructive criticism, only to be shut down with "that's misguided" and no counter argument. It gets old fast and it's been like this for dozens of years. I'm not surprised that they stop caring.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  If you are making the point that Twitter arguments are counterproductive, I agree. I will concede all objections about tone because my life is too short to get dragged into Twitter tone policing. I do find the recommendations interesting and would like to keep the conversation about them. I would especially like to avoid gatekeeping and No True Scotsman arguments in a thread about code.
  - eska 6y ago
    No, I did not make the point that Twitter arguments are counterproductive at all o the contrary this one looks very productive EXCEPT for the author. So now you're straw manning me as well, then say I'm gatekeeping and no true-scotsmanning. I don't appreciate that all and am therefore out.
    - humanrebar 6y ago
      - winterismute questioned qualifications to have a position on writing C++ for game dev. That is gatekeeping and No True Scotsman. - At least someone on Twitter called some tweets "retarded", etc., so OP thought to continue the conversation by ignoring nonsense and restating concerns in a healthier tone. This post is his attempt to be productive, apparently. - Any perceived slight against you, you have inferred. No offense intended. - Perhaps HN discussions are only marginally better than Twitter if people can't avoid making discussions about fold operators personally.
      - winterismute 6y ago
        > winterismute questioned qualifications to have a position on writing C++ for game dev. That is gatekeeping and No True Scotsman Well, not really. Some of the people on twitter (and the author himself) basically pointed out that "one of the main reason we do not use that coding style is that, despite the advantages, when you need to work on a codebase that requires both performant simulation of the planet and rapid experimentation of mechanics at the same time by hundreds of de-localized devs, you end up seeing many of its limitations". If you want to handle this argument, you need to have a clear idea of what are the priorities in such a scenario, which I doubt the author has. Even more interestingly, the article does not raise the point "this is how I write modern C++, I think it will benefit all the industries" but specifically seems to want to argue that this style helps gamedev particularly despite showing basically no domain-specific observations, nor anything that convinces me he knows what are the critical problems in the "triple A game" scenario... I don't think I can call this gatekeeping if I am not convinced - even by reading only the article - that the author has a good grasp of the fundamental problems involved in the development of big games, or not?