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I’m genuinely interested in what people who think of amazon as an evil company think it should do. It hardly ever makes a profit. Any profit it makes is from A

by zpeti 6y ago

I’m genuinely interested in what people who think of amazon as an evil company think it should do. It hardly ever makes a profit. Any profit it makes is from AWS usually. It is popular because it’s so cheap, which is why people buy there. So really the solutions can only be: 1. Raise prices and consumers suffer 2. Keep wages low and workers suffer 3. Stop existing. I wonder how many people who complain about amazons working conditions don’t shop there and buy the same product for a higher price elsewhere. I’d guess not many.

ccthr 6y ago
it makes no profit yet Bezos is the richest man in the world by some margin? How can you buy into that narrative. The no profit book keeping is just a way to avoid paying tax. As a shareholder I would rather see them pay fairer wages, be taxed appropriately and have a slower rate of growth. If the cost of scaling at the speed they scale comes from unethical business practices then the answer is to scale slower, not exploit the worlds poorest and most vulnerable so that Jeff, myself and a load of other privileged capitalists can get even wealthier.
- zpeti 6y ago
  I’m not buying into anything but investors are. Amazon isn’t profitable. It’s not to avoid paying tax, it’s to reinvest. And because investors don’t care about profits in amazon it makes bezos the richest man. This doesn’t have anything to do with my initial comment though. Amazon is cheap because it pushes costs down in every area. Including workers. And consumers like that.
  - ccthr 6y ago
    My answer to your initial question (what do people think amazon should do?) Invest less in growth and more in the human capital that is essential to running the business. Playing by a different set of rules guided by Jeff's meglomania has driven them to the top and that is laudable. Once you've conquered the world do you still need to keep squashing the people you lead? What is it serving at that point other than pure egotism ?
    - zpeti 6y ago
      Ok, so In your opinion amazon is “done”. Game complete. From now on it’s megalomania to grow. This isn’t how the world works. If you don’t develop others will take your place. Amazon is simply the best at this right now. Even so, as consumers everyone has every right not to buy from amazon. But they do.
      - ccthr 6y ago
        Nope, I am not saying cease growing. From my POV the most productive growth amazon can make as a company would be engaging in better ESG practices There are forms of capital outside of material assets and intellectual property. Amazon is losing human capital (tbray as a high profile example, but I am sure he's the tip of an invisible and silent iceberg) Amazon is losing brand capital which will hit the bottom line (ethical consumption is an ever increasing trend) Amazon will continue to irk Governments with its lack of respect for sovereignty laws (tax in particular, but also labour and monopoly).
vaneri2007 6y ago
I do believe that at some point the customer is the one actually that is at fault. If you buy from amazon, it means that you are accepting what is happening in their warehouses. Why everyone is looking to save one penny to buy an other yet product that will remain on a shelf after a month? Be reasonable, buy to a company close by even if it cost a bit more; at least that person will make profits and will come to eat at your restaurant!
aldkj32 6y ago
if you reinvest every penny you do not make a profit, but you still grows your business... that still should not stop you to pay a livable wage and provide fair conditions to your employees amazon is far to close a monopoly anyway :/
mping 6y ago
Consumers suffer because they won't buy that 50in tv? Really, any business that exploits workers should not exist. If some goods are just too expensive then people should really learn to live without them. I don't mind "suffering" as a consumer if what I pay reflects the real costs of production. It's called honesty. The problem is that any company as big as Amazon is a billion pound train moving at high speed, it can't make turns that fast. So while I would like for them to try harder I don't expect it to happen.
- zpeti 6y ago
  That might well be, but your view of how consumers should behave is not what happens in the real world. A lot of things in the world should be some way you imagine but they’re not. Otherwise amazon (or Walmart) wouldn’t exist, because everyone would support their local store. But they don’t. Prices matter.
  - harimau777 6y ago
    A potential solution would be to pass regulations that protect workers. Examples could include minimum wages, profit sharing plans, or mandatory benefits. That wouldn't necessarily affect consumer behavior but it would affect what strategies corporations are able to use to service that behavior.
    - zpeti 6y ago
      Ok, but then amazons prices will be higher. Taken to the extreme amazon might not exist because it can’t deliver the low prices it has so far. Is that what you want? If you do, that’s fine, that’s a fair enough perspective, but understand that you are probably making it harder for people with less money. Same goes for Walmart.
      - harimau777 6y ago
        I think that there needs to be a balance. Neither extreme redistribution nor extreme capitalism seem to work well for society as a whole. I also think that we need more progressive taxation and social benefits which would offset some of the price increases.
jahaja 6y ago
If high labour costs would be so detrimental to society then we Scandinavians would still be boarding those transatlantic steamers. But we aren't.
WilliamEdward 6y ago
It is ridiculous that you've boiled it down to those two options. The 3rd is cutting executive salary and paying low wage workers. Also amazon is not cheap compared to my local competitor and aliexpress, people buy from amazon because of convenience. And amazon makes profit on non-AWS products as well, don't be silly. I can literally google their financial statements to prove this.
- mmsimanga 6y ago
  I am often amazed at how executive pay is overlooked in these debates. I have no qualms with founders making a pretty penny from taking the risk of starting the company. Most executives appointed once company has gained momentum don't deserve the huge pay they get. Don't get me wrong they deserve to be well paid but not as much as we are paying them. I have been in companies where people said to be "absolutely" critical leave announced and company continues to function without missing a beat.
  - zpeti 6y ago
    I am often amazed at how good HN readers are at valuing labour of both workers and executives.
    - effingwewt 6y ago
      They aren't magicians, or doing something only they can do. In fact, name any other job that pays as well, even for failure. As mentioned earlier they take no risk and get all the reward. C level pay is the biggest scam of our time. And nice dodge with the ad honinem. A third option was presented as reducing c level pay and your response was to call anyone critical of thus bullshit an armchair expert. Why is your opinion so weighty? Bigger arms on your chair?
    - ccthr 6y ago
      > I am often amazed at how good HN readers are at valuing labour of both workers and executives. I suppose you are naive enough believe the world is a true meritocracy
kalleboo 6y ago
Is Amazon really that cheap? I live in a different market from the US, but Amazon is usually cheap but rarely the cheapest. But they are a one-stop shop for everything, they already have your credit card number, and you know what you’re getting in terms of shipping speed/return policy. They’re more convenient than cheap.
- harimau777 6y ago
  At least for me the differentiating factor is often shipping cost. When I look at purchasing certain products (e.g. weights for exercise) from other vendors, the shipping costs are often higher than the actual price of the product.
econcon 6y ago
Amazon atleast in India is not the cheapest option. I usually buy stuff from Chinese e-commerce websites where you can find things much cheaper.
- sand_castles 6y ago
  aliexpress ? takes a lot longer for delivery though.
  - econcon 6y ago
    Yes, I look for one that ships with Gati.cn it usually takes 7 days to arrive here. Amazon India usually has same product listed for 2-3x the price.
    - sand_castles 6y ago
      it says the domain is for sale.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Imagine thinking that China is less evil than Amazon.
  - econcon 6y ago
    It's not about any of them being evil. I've limited money and I choose to spend so that I get maximum spending least within the legal framework. And most of the Amazon basics item come from china too. So doesn't matter who you choose, china is benefits either way.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> It hardly ever makes a profit. Any profit it makes is from AWS usually. Reinvesting retail profits is a tax avoidance strategy.

by zpeti 6y ago

ccthr 6y ago

it makes no profit yet Bezos is the richest man in the world by some margin? How can you buy into that narrative. The no profit book keeping is just a way to avoid paying tax. As a shareholder I would rather see them pay fairer wages, be taxed appropriately and have a slower rate of growth. If the cost of scaling at the speed they scale comes from unethical business practices then the answer is to scale slower, not exploit the worlds poorest and most vulnerable so that Jeff, myself and a load of other privileged capitalists can get even wealthier.

zpeti 6y ago
I’m not buying into anything but investors are. Amazon isn’t profitable. It’s not to avoid paying tax, it’s to reinvest. And because investors don’t care about profits in amazon it makes bezos the richest man. This doesn’t have anything to do with my initial comment though. Amazon is cheap because it pushes costs down in every area. Including workers. And consumers like that.
- ccthr 6y ago
  My answer to your initial question (what do people think amazon should do?) Invest less in growth and more in the human capital that is essential to running the business. Playing by a different set of rules guided by Jeff's meglomania has driven them to the top and that is laudable. Once you've conquered the world do you still need to keep squashing the people you lead? What is it serving at that point other than pure egotism ?
  - zpeti 6y ago
    Ok, so In your opinion amazon is “done”. Game complete. From now on it’s megalomania to grow. This isn’t how the world works. If you don’t develop others will take your place. Amazon is simply the best at this right now. Even so, as consumers everyone has every right not to buy from amazon. But they do.
    - ccthr 6y ago
      Nope, I am not saying cease growing. From my POV the most productive growth amazon can make as a company would be engaging in better ESG practices There are forms of capital outside of material assets and intellectual property. Amazon is losing human capital (tbray as a high profile example, but I am sure he's the tip of an invisible and silent iceberg) Amazon is losing brand capital which will hit the bottom line (ethical consumption is an ever increasing trend) Amazon will continue to irk Governments with its lack of respect for sovereignty laws (tax in particular, but also labour and monopoly).

vaneri2007 6y ago

I do believe that at some point the customer is the one actually that is at fault. If you buy from amazon, it means that you are accepting what is happening in their warehouses. Why everyone is looking to save one penny to buy an other yet product that will remain on a shelf after a month? Be reasonable, buy to a company close by even if it cost a bit more; at least that person will make profits and will come to eat at your restaurant!

aldkj32 6y ago

if you reinvest every penny you do not make a profit, but you still grows your business... that still should not stop you to pay a livable wage and provide fair conditions to your employees amazon is far to close a monopoly anyway :/

mping 6y ago

Consumers suffer because they won't buy that 50in tv? Really, any business that exploits workers should not exist. If some goods are just too expensive then people should really learn to live without them. I don't mind "suffering" as a consumer if what I pay reflects the real costs of production. It's called honesty. The problem is that any company as big as Amazon is a billion pound train moving at high speed, it can't make turns that fast. So while I would like for them to try harder I don't expect it to happen.

zpeti 6y ago
That might well be, but your view of how consumers should behave is not what happens in the real world. A lot of things in the world should be some way you imagine but they’re not. Otherwise amazon (or Walmart) wouldn’t exist, because everyone would support their local store. But they don’t. Prices matter.
- harimau777 6y ago
  A potential solution would be to pass regulations that protect workers. Examples could include minimum wages, profit sharing plans, or mandatory benefits. That wouldn't necessarily affect consumer behavior but it would affect what strategies corporations are able to use to service that behavior.
  - zpeti 6y ago
    Ok, but then amazons prices will be higher. Taken to the extreme amazon might not exist because it can’t deliver the low prices it has so far. Is that what you want? If you do, that’s fine, that’s a fair enough perspective, but understand that you are probably making it harder for people with less money. Same goes for Walmart.
    - harimau777 6y ago
      I think that there needs to be a balance. Neither extreme redistribution nor extreme capitalism seem to work well for society as a whole. I also think that we need more progressive taxation and social benefits which would offset some of the price increases.

jahaja 6y ago

If high labour costs would be so detrimental to society then we Scandinavians would still be boarding those transatlantic steamers. But we aren't.

WilliamEdward 6y ago

It is ridiculous that you've boiled it down to those two options. The 3rd is cutting executive salary and paying low wage workers. Also amazon is not cheap compared to my local competitor and aliexpress, people buy from amazon because of convenience. And amazon makes profit on non-AWS products as well, don't be silly. I can literally google their financial statements to prove this.

mmsimanga 6y ago
I am often amazed at how executive pay is overlooked in these debates. I have no qualms with founders making a pretty penny from taking the risk of starting the company. Most executives appointed once company has gained momentum don't deserve the huge pay they get. Don't get me wrong they deserve to be well paid but not as much as we are paying them. I have been in companies where people said to be "absolutely" critical leave announced and company continues to function without missing a beat.
- zpeti 6y ago
  I am often amazed at how good HN readers are at valuing labour of both workers and executives.
  - effingwewt 6y ago
    They aren't magicians, or doing something only they can do. In fact, name any other job that pays as well, even for failure. As mentioned earlier they take no risk and get all the reward. C level pay is the biggest scam of our time. And nice dodge with the ad honinem. A third option was presented as reducing c level pay and your response was to call anyone critical of thus bullshit an armchair expert. Why is your opinion so weighty? Bigger arms on your chair?
  - ccthr 6y ago
    > I am often amazed at how good HN readers are at valuing labour of both workers and executives. I suppose you are naive enough believe the world is a true meritocracy

kalleboo 6y ago

Is Amazon really that cheap? I live in a different market from the US, but Amazon is usually cheap but rarely the cheapest. But they are a one-stop shop for everything, they already have your credit card number, and you know what you’re getting in terms of shipping speed/return policy. They’re more convenient than cheap.

harimau777 6y ago
At least for me the differentiating factor is often shipping cost. When I look at purchasing certain products (e.g. weights for exercise) from other vendors, the shipping costs are often higher than the actual price of the product.

econcon 6y ago

Amazon atleast in India is not the cheapest option. I usually buy stuff from Chinese e-commerce websites where you can find things much cheaper.

sand_castles 6y ago
aliexpress ? takes a lot longer for delivery though.
- econcon 6y ago
  Yes, I look for one that ships with Gati.cn it usually takes 7 days to arrive here. Amazon India usually has same product listed for 2-3x the price.
  - sand_castles 6y ago
    it says the domain is for sale.
koheripbal 6y ago
Imagine thinking that China is less evil than Amazon.
- econcon 6y ago
  It's not about any of them being evil. I've limited money and I choose to spend so that I get maximum spending least within the legal framework. And most of the Amazon basics item come from china too. So doesn't matter who you choose, china is benefits either way.

redis_mlc 6y ago

> It hardly ever makes a profit. Any profit it makes is from AWS usually. Reinvesting retail profits is a tax avoidance strategy.