4 ms·

> Wouldn't society benefit more from training and hiring people to clean streets, rebuild infrastructure, beautify urban areas, etc. than simply sending everyon

> Wouldn't society benefit more from training and hiring people to clean streets, rebuild infrastructure, beautify urban areas, etc. than simply sending everyone a check? Society benefits from having cleaned streets, but it does not benefit from forcing people to waste away their life working as street cleaners.

MattGaiser 6y ago
> Society benefits from having cleaned streets, but it does not benefit from forcing people to waste away their life working as street cleaners. Then how do the streets get cleaned?
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Quite a lot of societies decide it's not that much of a priority.
- rumanator 6y ago
  A couple of centuries ago, cotton-picking was done primarily by slave labour. Just because cotton is nice it doesn't mean slavery benefits society.
- jka 6y ago
  Street cleaning could continue to be an employable, paid task - and for people to choose to do it, it would have to be paid competitively (or be enjoyable enough for the person) relative to passive base-level UBI. A community desiring clean streets could allocate some of their UBI funds towards that goal. A community that doesn't could use those funds elsewhere. The goal would be for communities to acquire what they need and desire, rather than to try to employ everyone in society even if their assigned roles would involve useless work.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    More importantly, UBI creates incentives for soul-sucking jobs to become better or even desirable. Society should not rely on it's ability to coherce the less fortunate to sacrifice their lives performing horrible jobs just because it suits the fancy of a minority.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      I don’t understand this idea that cleaning jobs are somehow inherently horrible.
      - rumanator 6y ago
        Would you switch your current job to work as a street cleaner? Or a garbage collector? Or a McDonald's server?
        TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
        Seriously mate, recently the thought has crossed my mind. Here in Australia we have a liveable minimum wage, and I don’t earn that much more that it’s inconceivable.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  Is it inconceivable to you there are people who are ok with doing cleaning jobs? Those jobs do have some benefits: the specification doesn’t really ever change, you can see the outcomes of your work fairly immediate, the societal benefits are self-evident, and when you go home at the end of your work day there isn’t a lot to take home with you.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    > Is it inconceivable to you there are people who are ok with doing cleaning jobs? This. In some municipalities, garbage collectors do very well, and the occupation is even desirable. In others, it's the bottom of the barrel. A job is what you do from 9 to 5 in exchange for a salary. Is it so hard to understand that some occupations are simply so bad that there aren't that many people willing to do them, particularly if they pay so little?
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      You make a good point. Australia has a liveable minimum wage, and all full time employees receive four weeks annual leave and two weeks sick leave, while casual employees receive a higher minimum wage but typically no paid leave / sick leave. We also have a permanent part-time level where the conditions are somewhere between. That doesn’t mean all employment in Australia is not-shit, but it probably helps.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    > Is it inconceivable to you there are people who are ok with doing cleaning jobs? It is inconceivable that there are enough people. We know this because even during the height of a recession, certain classes of jobs still cannot be filled. Most people would rather be unemployed than pick fruit for example.
    - kwhitefoot 6y ago
      That's because those jobs don't pay enough.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  By offering pay for people to do it instead of assigning folks to do it because they, "need to work". If you can't get people, you aren't paying enough or your work conditions are bad. Some people don't mind these jobs if they aren't forced - and at least a few of the folks forced to work will feel like they are wasting away.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
Don't know where you live but in Europe nobody is forced to clean streets, on the contrary, that work is so well paid by our high taxes and is not very physically demanding since you're provided with all the machines and equipment you need to not strain yourself that you actually need to have quite good connections to get such a gig. Same with garbage men, they earn a pretty penny and the companies they work for make a mint.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > Don't know where you live but in Europe nobody is forced to clean streets That really depends on your definition of "forced". Wage slavery is a thing, even in Europe. Society as a whole is divided into classes where one of them is characterized by how their livelihood is tied to their ability to hold their current job, regardless of how degrading or life-sucking it might be. UBI would contribute greatly to turn that around, and enable more people to have a shot at a fulfilling life.

MattGaiser 6y ago

> Society benefits from having cleaned streets, but it does not benefit from forcing people to waste away their life working as street cleaners. Then how do the streets get cleaned?

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Quite a lot of societies decide it's not that much of a priority.
rumanator 6y ago
A couple of centuries ago, cotton-picking was done primarily by slave labour. Just because cotton is nice it doesn't mean slavery benefits society.
jka 6y ago
Street cleaning could continue to be an employable, paid task - and for people to choose to do it, it would have to be paid competitively (or be enjoyable enough for the person) relative to passive base-level UBI. A community desiring clean streets could allocate some of their UBI funds towards that goal. A community that doesn't could use those funds elsewhere. The goal would be for communities to acquire what they need and desire, rather than to try to employ everyone in society even if their assigned roles would involve useless work.
- rumanator 6y ago
  More importantly, UBI creates incentives for soul-sucking jobs to become better or even desirable. Society should not rely on it's ability to coherce the less fortunate to sacrifice their lives performing horrible jobs just because it suits the fancy of a minority.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    I don’t understand this idea that cleaning jobs are somehow inherently horrible.
    - rumanator 6y ago
      Would you switch your current job to work as a street cleaner? Or a garbage collector? Or a McDonald's server?
      - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
        Seriously mate, recently the thought has crossed my mind. Here in Australia we have a liveable minimum wage, and I don’t earn that much more that it’s inconceivable.
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
Is it inconceivable to you there are people who are ok with doing cleaning jobs? Those jobs do have some benefits: the specification doesn’t really ever change, you can see the outcomes of your work fairly immediate, the societal benefits are self-evident, and when you go home at the end of your work day there isn’t a lot to take home with you.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > Is it inconceivable to you there are people who are ok with doing cleaning jobs? This. In some municipalities, garbage collectors do very well, and the occupation is even desirable. In others, it's the bottom of the barrel. A job is what you do from 9 to 5 in exchange for a salary. Is it so hard to understand that some occupations are simply so bad that there aren't that many people willing to do them, particularly if they pay so little?
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    You make a good point. Australia has a liveable minimum wage, and all full time employees receive four weeks annual leave and two weeks sick leave, while casual employees receive a higher minimum wage but typically no paid leave / sick leave. We also have a permanent part-time level where the conditions are somewhere between. That doesn’t mean all employment in Australia is not-shit, but it probably helps.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  > Is it inconceivable to you there are people who are ok with doing cleaning jobs? It is inconceivable that there are enough people. We know this because even during the height of a recession, certain classes of jobs still cannot be filled. Most people would rather be unemployed than pick fruit for example.
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    That's because those jobs don't pay enough.
Broken_Hippo 6y ago
By offering pay for people to do it instead of assigning folks to do it because they, "need to work". If you can't get people, you aren't paying enough or your work conditions are bad. Some people don't mind these jobs if they aren't forced - and at least a few of the folks forced to work will feel like they are wasting away.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

Don't know where you live but in Europe nobody is forced to clean streets, on the contrary, that work is so well paid by our high taxes and is not very physically demanding since you're provided with all the machines and equipment you need to not strain yourself that you actually need to have quite good connections to get such a gig. Same with garbage men, they earn a pretty penny and the companies they work for make a mint.

rumanator 6y ago
> Don't know where you live but in Europe nobody is forced to clean streets That really depends on your definition of "forced". Wage slavery is a thing, even in Europe. Society as a whole is divided into classes where one of them is characterized by how their livelihood is tied to their ability to hold their current job, regardless of how degrading or life-sucking it might be. UBI would contribute greatly to turn that around, and enable more people to have a shot at a fulfilling life.