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I think the usual solution is to increase income tax? So basically the introduction of UBI is neutral for the average household, the extra money from UBI being

I think the usual solution is to increase income tax? So basically the introduction of UBI is neutral for the average household, the extra money from UBI being equivalent to the extra money lost on taxes

deleted 6y ago
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apta 6y ago
Income (and sales) tax is a terrible model. A "wealth tax" (e.g. see how Islam requires Zakah) is superior, and has been historically shown to work.
- godelski 6y ago
  > has been historically shown to work. Can you source this? Because I understand the exact opposite to be true. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/02/26/698057356/if-a-wealth-tax-is-such-a-good-idea-why-did-europe-kill-theirs https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/02/26/698057356/if-a... https://www.npr.org/2019/03/01/699261950/why-a-wealth-tax-didnt-work-in-europe https://www.npr.org/2019/03/01/699261950/why-a-wealth-tax-di... https://www.businessinsider.com/4-european-countries-wealth-tax-spain-norway-switzerland-belgium-2019-11?op=1#belgium-enacted-a-limited-wealth-tax-last-year-on-securities-accounts-containing-over-500000-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/4-european-countries-wealth-... https://taxfoundation.org/elizabeth-warren-wealth-tax-oecd/ https://taxfoundation.org/elizabeth-warren-wealth-tax-oecd/ tldr: European countries dumped them because it is hard to calculate value of assets, especially for the ultra rich.
  - apta 6y ago
    My source is simply reading history :) It has been reported that during time of Omar ibn Abdul-Aziz, there were no poor people left to take Zakah, since everyone paid their dues. The difference between Zakah and wealth tax as proposed in the links you mentioned, is that the former applies to almost everyone (except the poor/needy obviously) in lieu of income and sales tax, not just to people with > $500k (or whatever) in their accounts. It may not be as straight forward to calculate compared to income tax, but the goal here is to solve a problem, not to just implement a mediocre solution that has been shown not to work. I came across this article that gives a high level summary[0]. [0] https://nzf.org.uk/when-islam-eradicated-poverty-umar-b-abdul-aziz-zakat https://nzf.org.uk/when-islam-eradicated-poverty-umar-b-abdu...
notahacker 6y ago
Except that it won't be fiscally neutral, because you've also got to pay for all the people who don't work enough to pay [non-trivial amounts of] income tax but also don't receive any form of benefit under the existing system. The usual unemployment rate hovers around the 4% mark. The usual working age economic inactivity rate hovers around the 25% mark. At least some people are going to have to be worse off to subsidise those people who are neither employed nor looking for employment.
- namdnay 6y ago
  > At least some people are going to have to be worse off to subsidise those people who are neither employed nor looking for employment Yes, those in the upper tax brackets will pay more than they do today, to cover the situation you describe

deleted 6y ago

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apta 6y ago

Income (and sales) tax is a terrible model. A "wealth tax" (e.g. see how Islam requires Zakah) is superior, and has been historically shown to work.

godelski 6y ago
> has been historically shown to work. Can you source this? Because I understand the exact opposite to be true. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/02/26/698057356/if-a-wealth-tax-is-such-a-good-idea-why-did-europe-kill-theirs https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/02/26/698057356/if-a... https://www.npr.org/2019/03/01/699261950/why-a-wealth-tax-didnt-work-in-europe https://www.npr.org/2019/03/01/699261950/why-a-wealth-tax-di... https://www.businessinsider.com/4-european-countries-wealth-tax-spain-norway-switzerland-belgium-2019-11?op=1#belgium-enacted-a-limited-wealth-tax-last-year-on-securities-accounts-containing-over-500000-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/4-european-countries-wealth-... https://taxfoundation.org/elizabeth-warren-wealth-tax-oecd/ https://taxfoundation.org/elizabeth-warren-wealth-tax-oecd/ tldr: European countries dumped them because it is hard to calculate value of assets, especially for the ultra rich.
- apta 6y ago
  My source is simply reading history :) It has been reported that during time of Omar ibn Abdul-Aziz, there were no poor people left to take Zakah, since everyone paid their dues. The difference between Zakah and wealth tax as proposed in the links you mentioned, is that the former applies to almost everyone (except the poor/needy obviously) in lieu of income and sales tax, not just to people with > $500k (or whatever) in their accounts. It may not be as straight forward to calculate compared to income tax, but the goal here is to solve a problem, not to just implement a mediocre solution that has been shown not to work. I came across this article that gives a high level summary[0]. [0] https://nzf.org.uk/when-islam-eradicated-poverty-umar-b-abdul-aziz-zakat https://nzf.org.uk/when-islam-eradicated-poverty-umar-b-abdu...

notahacker 6y ago

Except that it won't be fiscally neutral, because you've also got to pay for all the people who don't work enough to pay [non-trivial amounts of] income tax but also don't receive any form of benefit under the existing system. The usual unemployment rate hovers around the 4% mark. The usual working age economic inactivity rate hovers around the 25% mark. At least some people are going to have to be worse off to subsidise those people who are neither employed nor looking for employment.

namdnay 6y ago
> At least some people are going to have to be worse off to subsidise those people who are neither employed nor looking for employment Yes, those in the upper tax brackets will pay more than they do today, to cover the situation you describe