7 ms·
> Another positive sign for UBI is that most Americans seem keen to return to their workplaces. One fear has been that UBI would lead to a couch-potato culture,
by BelleOfTheBall 6y ago
> Another positive sign for UBI is that most Americans seem keen to return to their workplaces. One fear has been that UBI would lead to a couch-potato culture, with people choosing to stay at home even when they’re finally able to leave.
This is an old take that has very rarely (if at all) seen tangible evidence. The Guardian reported on this [0] and so did QZ [1] Even if UBI pushes a small percentage of people to quit their jobs, those people will either move into different jobs that they enjoy more, free to pursue a career they like thanks to financial security, or contribute to society in other ways: creating art, volunteering, etc.
[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/universal-basic-income-work-finland-experiment-payments https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/univer...
[1]: https://qz.com/765902/ubi-wouldnt-mean-everyone-quits-working/ https://qz.com/765902/ubi-wouldnt-mean-everyone-quits-workin...
- luckylion 6y ago> This is an old take that has very rarely (if at all) seen tangible evidence. It's literally what we face in Germany. Our unemployable are getting housing, health care, TVs etc + cash and they do not move on to jobs they enjoy more, they do not volunteer more, they do not start companies etc. If you don't see evidence of that in the US, it's because you don't have anything that comes close to unlimited perpetual income with no requirements to work. If you have an economic shut down for a month or two and people expect the "free money" to run out eventually, they'll be eager to get back to work. The situation changes very much if they do not expect it to run out and adapt to the new circumstances where work is optional and considered a hobby.
- thinkloop 6y agoOddly Germany might be the single most productive country in the world?
- pedrosorio 6y agoIf you measure productivity by economic output / hours worked, allowing those who have no desire to work to be excluded sounds like a good way to maximize it.
- luckylion 6y agoI don't know whether it is, but with relatively low personal wealth for the average German, low income growth, and plenty of industry, it may be. If it is, I don't believe it has anything to do with keeping millions of people at home and over-taxing the rest to pay for them though.
- cecja 6y agoThe hardest working man on earth is probably one of the worst paid ones and you fucking cunt in your fucking privileged position is talking about over-taxing. At least read a coffee table book about social and economic justice you absolute piece of shit.
- youdonthavekids 6y agoThere's nothing odd about that. Check out one of the many doccos from the UK where people on benefits don't want to work and do fuck all to enrich themselves or society whilst not working. I used to live in an area full of those people until I managed to escape when I was 18.
- WalterBright 6y agoI'd worry this creates a large underclass where the people have no purpose and no point to their lives. It's like what happens when we remove the need for physical labor. People's health declines. Some people join gyms to compensate, some engage in purposeless jogging, but not that many.
- jon889 6y agoNo one ever says this about m/billionaires or their children. There are always going to be a few people taking advantage of a system, that shouldn’t be a reason to punish everyone else.
- jcims 6y agoThat’s because we call them trust fund babies instead and they are widely mocked and ridiculed.
- spaced-out 6y agoYou mean widely envied.
- WalterBright 6y agoEnvied? Sure. Respected? Nope. Such people often do have self-esteem issues because they know they didn't earn it, and so does everyone else.
- WalterBright 6y agoYes, they do say that about the children of wealthy people. The conventional wisdom is the first generation earns it, the second spends it, the third is back where the first started. Wealthy people are well aware of this, and will often try to make their kids earn their things, send them to a military school, etc.
- ximeng 6y agoNow for most people they have somebody who tells them what is useful to work on. This “purpose” is externally imposed and often people don’t really fully believe in the work they’re doing already. Better to have people educated and having time to think and set their own direction than the current system. In an automated society people’s purpose will change whether they want it to or not.
- rewoi 6y agoIt is even worse. Germany is employing large number of Romanians for agricultural work. At peak of corona crisis, it cramped many people into airplanes and shipped them from Romania to Germany. No social distancing whatsoever. They sleep in container houses 8 people per room. No way to use "refugees" for fruit picking.
- ChuckNorris89 6y agoI agree, that was mental. Looks like concern for people's health goes out the window as soon as big industry profits are threatened and the people you sacrifice are not your own.
- devdas 6y agoRefugees aren't allowed to work.
- akvadrako 6y agoGermany doesn’t have a UBI. When people start earning they lose many of those benefits quickly. That’s the difference.
- jcims 6y agoSounds like the welfare system in the US. Same obvious result, obviously. Fixing that would be a concrete step towards UBI.
- luckylion 6y agoAs far as I understand, most UBI-proposals would essentially be the same. If you work, you pay more taxes on your income to fund the UBI. You'll still get the UBI, but you'll pay significantly more taxes which will leave you pretty much even.
- smhg 6y agoAs a counter example: a UBI proposal in my country was linked to taxation on consumption (VAT). That makes more sense at first glance.
- ithkuil 6y agoBut the cutoff happens much later in the curve. With classic welfare handouts the marginal tax curve is very steep at the beginning
- lmm 6y agoNo. The whole point of UBI is to remove the cliffs and high marginal tax rates that the working poor face; people in low-income jobs would benefit the most, approximately doubling their income (someone on minimum wage would instead get the equivalent of minimum wage + unemployment). Also it becomes more practical to ease into work, since if you work e.g. 5 hours/week you get full pay for those 5 hours rather than losing more in lost benefits than you gain. Of course this has to be balanced by higher earners paying more tax.
- luckylion 6y ago
- atoav 6y agoWhat we have in Germany isn't even close to UBI.
- luckylion 6y agoFor most intents and purposes, it is. Yes, it's not "100% cash, do whatever you want", and it theoretically contains the requirement for anyone getting benefits to be looking for work. Practically, it's not enforced. There are sanctions that can reduce the cash-component of social benefits, but you'll generally have to try hard to get to that point. If you glide along, you wont face them and you can stay on benefits indefinitely.
- fileeditview 6y agoI think with UBI it would mean that you CAN work something and get more than before. UBI won't go away as soon as you start to earn extra. But this is the case with German "Sozialhilfe". So it is not really comparable because it gives the wrong incentives.
- luckylion 6y agoYou're right regarding the incentives, but the functional part i.e. "your basics are taken care of" is very close. I'd expect the effects that are promised with UBI ("people will learn more new things, people will volunteer more because they don't have to worry about making rent") to happen with the current system, as you don't have to worry about food, medicine or rent (to a degree, if you're living alone in a 100sqm flat, they will ask you to move to a more appropriate place after a few months. I suppose the same would happen with UBI, only you wouldn't be asked to, you just can't afford it)
- atoav 6y agoUBI is for everybody, without asking for anything in return. Harz4 on the other hand is not universal, seen as a stigma (people who have to rely on it are called "Harzer") and forces you to jump through all kind of hoops, be present at dates in the job offices etc. I happened to study at art school in Germany and never had to apply for it, but many of my friends did and it is quite frankly state organized humiliation. And everybody involved is cynical. If you go there as a young academic and seriously try to find a job, they laugh at you.
- jcims 6y agoMost will. Obviously not all will. Presumably the loss of the extremely strong counter-incentives to work that are built into the welfare system will give better results there. You’ll never eliminate freeloaders entirely and I think it’s important to acknowledge and address that for UBI to gain broader adoption.
- PudgePacket 6y agoDoes a rich kid living off an inheritance and not working count as a freeloader?
- rumanator 6y agoYes. He may not be living at the expense of social security but he's consuming resources without producing anything back.
- jcims 6y agoYes of course, and sending them UBI checks isn’t a good look for the program either.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 6y agoOr a retiree living off a state pension.
- notahacker 6y agoState pensions are the most obvious comparison to UBI with respect to being a fixed livable income paid to people for the rest of their life. The system is sustainable because people have to work before they start receiving their pension, not because pensioners [with intact cognitive facilities] are extremely creative and productive when freed from the need to work to pay the bills.
- 6y ago
- hnaccy 6y agoHow do these studies handle the issue that participants will know it is only temporary?
- aiyodev 6y agoAlso, has everyone forgotten that, until relatively recently, half the population stayed at home to raise children, cook, and clean the house? Going from one-paycheck homes to two-paycheck homes and letting daycare raise our children hasn't made us wealthier, happier, smarter, or healthier. We should allow UBI to take us back to the way things were before but without the gender discrimination. We should be encouraging fathers and mothers to spend more time looking after their children, not telling people their labor has no value unless they're contributing to GDP.
- aww_dang 6y agoIsn't it price inflation which created the necessity for many families to have two or more incomes? UBI will naturally create more of that same price inflation, especially for the goods and services which those who would benefit the most from it consume.
- aiyodev 6y agoUBI does not cause inflation.
- varjag 6y agoAny unbalanced money supply causes inflation. This ultimately puts a practical cap on how high UBI can be in a given economy.
- aiyodev 6y agoFalse. Read this article: https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-income-just-cause-massive-inflation-fe71d69f15e7 https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-...
- varjag 6y agoNeed a whole lot more to be convinced that basic economic mechanism can be circumvented than someone's enthusiastic Medium blog.