6 ms·

DIY Particle Detector

226 points by homarp 6y ago

adammunich 6y ago
This is great. I am very curious what other common diodes can be used in place of the $3000 PIN diode detectors typically used in XRF setups.
- yummypaint 6y ago
  Alot of big power diodes can also be used, and they should have a larger volume of silicon available. Presumably the snr will be worse. Maybe start by filtering for diodes with low reverse bias current but high forward current on digikey?
- segfaultbuserr 6y ago
  I wonder whether those common, $10 PIN diodes for UHF/microwave can be used.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
segfaultbuserr 6y ago
The GitHub project page has a better and more comprehensive introduction than the CERN page: * https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector/ https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector/ Paper (Open Access, click "Download PDF"): * Smartphone and Tablet-Based Sensing of Environmental Radioactivity: Mobile Low-Cost Measurements for Monitoring, Citizen Science, and Educational Purposes https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264 https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ngold 6y ago
  Thank you, this diy particle detector looks pretty neat. Love more reading material on the subject.
alasdair_ 6y ago
If you want another fun particle detector project, you can build a cloud chamber with some dry ice and an old fish tank: https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/january-2015/how-to-build-your-own-particle-detector https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/january-2015/how-to...
- jcims 6y ago
  I made a really crude one of these a long time ago. Seeing the trails live is really strange and cool. If you can only get weak isopropyl you can remove water pretty easily by salting it [0]. Drawing the alcohol off the top with a turkey baster or similar is probably the best way with typical household equipment. If you don’t have one of those, you can do it in a water bottle, let the water settle out with a bottle upside down, poke a small hole in the base of the bottle then just partially open the lid over sink and let it drain until you get to the alcohol. Just remember that this stuff is now super flammable so be careful. (Salting doesn’t really work with ethyl alcohol so save your vodka) Dry ice is pretty easy to get at Graeter‘s if you have one of those local. Just don’t store it in a closed container. Gloves are a great idea of course but I also advise wearing thick socks or slippers when you’re using it. Stepping on even a very small piece of dry ice in bare feet is experience you will remember. Dry ice is a lot of fun but doesn’t last long. If you go through this, check youtube for other experiments and things to do, and buy a little extra. Just remember never put it in a closed container, it will almost certainly explode. Physics doesn’t care about you, respect the material. (edit: I just checked, heat of sublimation of CO2 is approximately 570 kJ per kilogram. A stick of dynamite has approximately 1 MJ. There’s a lot of energy cached in those blocks.) Have fun! [0] https://youtu.be/CtwQ2aEBur4 https://youtu.be/CtwQ2aEBur4
  - ohyeshedid 6y ago
    Jumping in to remind folks: If you notice an increasing level of panic-like feelings when working with dry ice, seek fresh air immediately.
    - jcims 6y ago
      Great point. There have definitely been some tragedies when people play with dry ice without understanding the dangers. Don’t throw it in the pool and go swimming or try to cover yourself with fog, etc etc. Study up.
djaque 6y ago
It's amazing how accessible some of these detectors can be. I wonder if you could perform some of the classic physics lab experiments with them like muon lifetime measurement.
crispyambulance 6y ago
Here's another "kitchen-table" project, it's a muon detector. This one uses plastic scintillating material in front of the detector. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1606.01196v2.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1606.01196v2.pdf github: https://github.com/spenceraxani/Desktop-Muon-Detector https://github.com/spenceraxani/Desktop-Muon-Detector
- 0zelot 6y ago
  also its website: http://www.cosmicwatch.lns.mit.edu http://www.cosmicwatch.lns.mit.edu In terms of difficulty to build and operate it, I would rate the discussed projects such: cloud chamber < DIY particle detector (electron-detector variant) < DIY particle detector (alpha-spectrometer variant) < desktop muon detector Even DIY cloud chambers can be a bit tricky to get running for the first time (especially with too high humidity like in summer). Just don't give up! ;-) A few tips can be found in this manual: https://scoollab.web.cern.ch/cloud-chamber https://scoollab.web.cern.ch/cloud-chamber
supernova87a 6y ago
Very cool -- one thing I don't understand though. I know that alpha radiation is stopped by a piece of paper thickness. How does this then detect such radiation through the metal of a box if the detector has to be inside?
- sllabres 6y ago
  If i understand correctly, the sensor hast to be inside the metal box, as well as the item to be measured. Both shilded from light. Even the glas covering the diode has to be broken away / removed
- polishdude20 6y ago
  Actually alpha radiation can get through a piece of paper. Check out thought emporiums videos on it on YouTube. I remember he did a video about the different types and had a detector between the sources and some thickness of stuff and they seemed to go through paper just fine. I think it's his video about those healing bracelets that actually emit radiation.
  - bunje 6y ago
    I once did an experiment with a rock containing uranium and a Geiger counter. The noise stopped immediately after putting printing paper between them and resumed after taking it off.
  - 0zelot 6y ago
    Unfortunately, that video contained some flawed conclusions. I had left a comment back then. Alpha particles from natural sources like an uranium stone penetrate 50 micrometers of solid hard material at most. Let's give it maybe 100 micrometers of soft paper, but that's about it. What was most likely observed in that video is radon, which is a radioactive gas, slowly diffusing out of uranium or thorium stones. Since it's gaseous, it can circumvent the paper and then do its alpha decay just behind it. I wrote a few lines on those aspects in this article https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264 https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264
ngcc_hk 6y ago
Just place an order. Will read after it comes.
tzs 6y ago
The parts list includes 9 resistors, 8 capacitors, a photodiode, a dual op amp chip, a switch, and a BNC connector. The op amp chip is in an 8 pin DIP. The capacitors, the photodiode, and 8 of the 9 resistors are all in packages with leads. The switch and BNC connector can easily have leads soldered to them Then there is R3, a 40 M resistor that the parts list calls for getting as in SMD. In fact, the parts overview link specifically calls for a black SMD. As far as I can see, R3 is the only thing that needs a PCB. Everything else would work fine with a solderless breadboard, or any other common non-PCB hobbyist electronics construction method. Is there some reason R3 has to be black and has to be an SMD resistor for this thing to work? Looking at the schematic it appears to just be part of the feedback loop to control the gain of the op amp in the first stage amplifier, which should work no matter how one decides to get 40 M of resistance.
- new299 6y ago
  There seem to be builds using a through hole resistor for R3: https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector/blob/master/hardware/V1.2/documentation/BPX61_onboard.jpg https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector/blob/master/ha... The opamp appears to be configured as a transimpediance amplifier. 40M is a lot of gain. Probably keeping traces short and the resistor away from the board helps. That’s probably why they mount the resistor vertically when they use a through hole in the pic above (my guess anyway). Using a SMD keeps the traces short, which might be why they use it in the current version. Another option could be just to air wire the resistor. Sometimes people bend up the legs on the opamp and wire the resistor/input directly to the IC pin. I think you might have issues on a breadboard. Air wiring the whole thing would probably work. Or using protoboard, trying to keep the traces short.
  - ajnin 6y ago
    > There seem to be builds using a through hole resistor for R3 That's the "electron-detector" version, which uses a 10M feedback resistor. The alpha-spectrometer version is the one that uses the 40M SMD resistor.
    - 6y ago
tambeb 6y ago
I created a cloud chamber a few years ago to test out a piece of uranium ore I bought on Amazon. It's a pretty simple design, cooled with a Peltier (thermoelectric) device instead of dry ice. I got the idea from an Instructable article[1] and the whole thing was pretty awesome actually. I have a video[2] if you're interested in what it looked like. It's a few minutes long and unedited, so heads up on that. If you watch any 10-20 second portion of it you'll get the general idea. [1] https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Cloud-Chamber-using-Peltier-Coolers/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Cloud-Chamber-using-... [2] https://youtu.be/vaRyXmMGJdk https://youtu.be/vaRyXmMGJdk
z3t4 6y ago
Would be interesting with an article describing how this works
- 0zelot 6y ago
  here you go https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264 https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264
0zelot 6y ago
Let me just point here again to the project entries on Kitspace.org: https://kitspace.org/boards/github.com/ozel/diy_particle_detector/alpha-spectrometer/ https://kitspace.org/boards/github.com/ozel/diy_particle_det... https://kitspace.org/boards/github.com/ozel/diy_particle_detector/electron-detector/ https://kitspace.org/boards/github.com/ozel/diy_particle_det... Yes, this project is very much doable for electronic beginners with a knack for science (16-year olds who have never soldered manage it well if guided a little bit). The parts are easy to solder and ordering the circuit board will make your life much easier in order to get it working. BTW, no one earns money with the kitspace website above. This is community-run and intended to make open hardware projects easier to build by simplifying the ordering procedures. The parts and board suppliers linked on kitspace should cover most of the world.
technocratia 6y ago
Could this be used to create HW RNG?
- 0zelot 6y ago
  yes totally. There is a great DIY project for doing that https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ It's not required to have the particle energy measured for making random numbers, detecting precisely the arrival time of particles is more important plus having a high hit rate is usually desired. My DIY detectors are not optimized in that way but it would work in principle. Timestamps are already recorded by the python scripts on github, it would be just a matter of evaluating them.

226 points by homarp 6y ago

This is great. I am very curious what other common diodes can be used in place of the $3000 PIN diode detectors typically used in XRF setups.

yummypaint 6y ago
Alot of big power diodes can also be used, and they should have a larger volume of silicon available. Presumably the snr will be worse. Maybe start by filtering for diodes with low reverse bias current but high forward current on digikey?
segfaultbuserr 6y ago
I wonder whether those common, $10 PIN diodes for UHF/microwave can be used.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

segfaultbuserr 6y ago

The GitHub project page has a better and more comprehensive introduction than the CERN page: * https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector/ https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector/ Paper (Open Access, click "Download PDF"): * Smartphone and Tablet-Based Sensing of Environmental Radioactivity: Mobile Low-Cost Measurements for Monitoring, Citizen Science, and Educational Purposes https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264 https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ngold 6y ago
Thank you, this diy particle detector looks pretty neat. Love more reading material on the subject.

alasdair_ 6y ago

If you want another fun particle detector project, you can build a cloud chamber with some dry ice and an old fish tank: https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/january-2015/how-to-build-your-own-particle-detector https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/january-2015/how-to...

jcims 6y ago
I made a really crude one of these a long time ago. Seeing the trails live is really strange and cool. If you can only get weak isopropyl you can remove water pretty easily by salting it [0]. Drawing the alcohol off the top with a turkey baster or similar is probably the best way with typical household equipment. If you don’t have one of those, you can do it in a water bottle, let the water settle out with a bottle upside down, poke a small hole in the base of the bottle then just partially open the lid over sink and let it drain until you get to the alcohol. Just remember that this stuff is now super flammable so be careful. (Salting doesn’t really work with ethyl alcohol so save your vodka) Dry ice is pretty easy to get at Graeter‘s if you have one of those local. Just don’t store it in a closed container. Gloves are a great idea of course but I also advise wearing thick socks or slippers when you’re using it. Stepping on even a very small piece of dry ice in bare feet is experience you will remember. Dry ice is a lot of fun but doesn’t last long. If you go through this, check youtube for other experiments and things to do, and buy a little extra. Just remember never put it in a closed container, it will almost certainly explode. Physics doesn’t care about you, respect the material. (edit: I just checked, heat of sublimation of CO2 is approximately 570 kJ per kilogram. A stick of dynamite has approximately 1 MJ. There’s a lot of energy cached in those blocks.) Have fun! [0] https://youtu.be/CtwQ2aEBur4 https://youtu.be/CtwQ2aEBur4
- ohyeshedid 6y ago
  Jumping in to remind folks: If you notice an increasing level of panic-like feelings when working with dry ice, seek fresh air immediately.
  - jcims 6y ago
    Great point. There have definitely been some tragedies when people play with dry ice without understanding the dangers. Don’t throw it in the pool and go swimming or try to cover yourself with fog, etc etc. Study up.

djaque 6y ago

It's amazing how accessible some of these detectors can be. I wonder if you could perform some of the classic physics lab experiments with them like muon lifetime measurement.

crispyambulance 6y ago

Here's another "kitchen-table" project, it's a muon detector. This one uses plastic scintillating material in front of the detector. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1606.01196v2.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1606.01196v2.pdf github: https://github.com/spenceraxani/Desktop-Muon-Detector https://github.com/spenceraxani/Desktop-Muon-Detector

0zelot 6y ago
also its website: http://www.cosmicwatch.lns.mit.edu http://www.cosmicwatch.lns.mit.edu In terms of difficulty to build and operate it, I would rate the discussed projects such: cloud chamber < DIY particle detector (electron-detector variant) < DIY particle detector (alpha-spectrometer variant) < desktop muon detector Even DIY cloud chambers can be a bit tricky to get running for the first time (especially with too high humidity like in summer). Just don't give up! ;-) A few tips can be found in this manual: https://scoollab.web.cern.ch/cloud-chamber https://scoollab.web.cern.ch/cloud-chamber

supernova87a 6y ago

Very cool -- one thing I don't understand though. I know that alpha radiation is stopped by a piece of paper thickness. How does this then detect such radiation through the metal of a box if the detector has to be inside?

sllabres 6y ago
If i understand correctly, the sensor hast to be inside the metal box, as well as the item to be measured. Both shilded from light. Even the glas covering the diode has to be broken away / removed
polishdude20 6y ago
Actually alpha radiation can get through a piece of paper. Check out thought emporiums videos on it on YouTube. I remember he did a video about the different types and had a detector between the sources and some thickness of stuff and they seemed to go through paper just fine. I think it's his video about those healing bracelets that actually emit radiation.
- bunje 6y ago
  I once did an experiment with a rock containing uranium and a Geiger counter. The noise stopped immediately after putting printing paper between them and resumed after taking it off.
- 0zelot 6y ago
  Unfortunately, that video contained some flawed conclusions. I had left a comment back then. Alpha particles from natural sources like an uranium stone penetrate 50 micrometers of solid hard material at most. Let's give it maybe 100 micrometers of soft paper, but that's about it. What was most likely observed in that video is radon, which is a radioactive gas, slowly diffusing out of uranium or thorium stones. Since it's gaseous, it can circumvent the paper and then do its alpha decay just behind it. I wrote a few lines on those aspects in this article https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264 https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264

ngcc_hk 6y ago

Just place an order. Will read after it comes.

tzs 6y ago

The parts list includes 9 resistors, 8 capacitors, a photodiode, a dual op amp chip, a switch, and a BNC connector. The op amp chip is in an 8 pin DIP. The capacitors, the photodiode, and 8 of the 9 resistors are all in packages with leads. The switch and BNC connector can easily have leads soldered to them Then there is R3, a 40 M resistor that the parts list calls for getting as in SMD. In fact, the parts overview link specifically calls for a black SMD. As far as I can see, R3 is the only thing that needs a PCB. Everything else would work fine with a solderless breadboard, or any other common non-PCB hobbyist electronics construction method. Is there some reason R3 has to be black and has to be an SMD resistor for this thing to work? Looking at the schematic it appears to just be part of the feedback loop to control the gain of the op amp in the first stage amplifier, which should work no matter how one decides to get 40 M of resistance.

new299 6y ago
There seem to be builds using a through hole resistor for R3: https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector/blob/master/hardware/V1.2/documentation/BPX61_onboard.jpg https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector/blob/master/ha... The opamp appears to be configured as a transimpediance amplifier. 40M is a lot of gain. Probably keeping traces short and the resistor away from the board helps. That’s probably why they mount the resistor vertically when they use a through hole in the pic above (my guess anyway). Using a SMD keeps the traces short, which might be why they use it in the current version. Another option could be just to air wire the resistor. Sometimes people bend up the legs on the opamp and wire the resistor/input directly to the IC pin. I think you might have issues on a breadboard. Air wiring the whole thing would probably work. Or using protoboard, trying to keep the traces short.
- ajnin 6y ago
  > There seem to be builds using a through hole resistor for R3 That's the "electron-detector" version, which uses a 10M feedback resistor. The alpha-spectrometer version is the one that uses the 40M SMD resistor.
  - 6y ago

tambeb 6y ago

I created a cloud chamber a few years ago to test out a piece of uranium ore I bought on Amazon. It's a pretty simple design, cooled with a Peltier (thermoelectric) device instead of dry ice. I got the idea from an Instructable article[1] and the whole thing was pretty awesome actually. I have a video[2] if you're interested in what it looked like. It's a few minutes long and unedited, so heads up on that. If you watch any 10-20 second portion of it you'll get the general idea. [1] https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Cloud-Chamber-using-Peltier-Coolers/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Cloud-Chamber-using-... [2] https://youtu.be/vaRyXmMGJdk https://youtu.be/vaRyXmMGJdk

z3t4 6y ago

Would be interesting with an article describing how this works

0zelot 6y ago
here you go https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264 https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/19/19/4264

0zelot 6y ago

Let me just point here again to the project entries on Kitspace.org: https://kitspace.org/boards/github.com/ozel/diy_particle_detector/alpha-spectrometer/ https://kitspace.org/boards/github.com/ozel/diy_particle_det... https://kitspace.org/boards/github.com/ozel/diy_particle_detector/electron-detector/ https://kitspace.org/boards/github.com/ozel/diy_particle_det... Yes, this project is very much doable for electronic beginners with a knack for science (16-year olds who have never soldered manage it well if guided a little bit). The parts are easy to solder and ordering the circuit board will make your life much easier in order to get it working. BTW, no one earns money with the kitspace website above. This is community-run and intended to make open hardware projects easier to build by simplifying the ordering procedures. The parts and board suppliers linked on kitspace should cover most of the world.

technocratia 6y ago

Could this be used to create HW RNG?

0zelot 6y ago
yes totally. There is a great DIY project for doing that https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ It's not required to have the particle energy measured for making random numbers, detecting precisely the arrival time of particles is more important plus having a high hit rate is usually desired. My DIY detectors are not optimized in that way but it would work in principle. Timestamps are already recorded by the python scripts on github, it would be just a matter of evaluating them.