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This is a classic case of aggregation theory: https://stratechery.com/concept/aggregation-theory/ https://stratechery.com/concept/aggregation-theory/ DoorDash,

This is a classic case of aggregation theory: https://stratechery.com/concept/aggregation-theory/ https://stratechery.com/concept/aggregation-theory/ DoorDash, Grubhub, etc. are becoming the place that customers go to when looking for food. And if they own the customer relationship, then your restaurant is a commodity. This is basically how I live already. I sometimes want something specific from a specific restaurant, but more often than not, I just want something and I browse through Seamless until I see some food that looks good and order it. I don't really know or care where it's coming from as long as it's reasonably priced and has decent ratings. I know how heavy the fees are, so I tried for awhile to order from restaurants directly, but it's often horribly painful. You have to call on the phone, which is already a huge hit to user experience. Then you have issues with noise, accents, trying to accurately convey exactly what you want with any modifications, providing your credit card over the phone. It's just horrible and I always fall back to just using Seamless. I feel bad, but restaurants certainly don't seem like they're going out of their way to make the direct ordering experience as painless as possible. These restaurants don't have the money or expertise to develop great websites or apps, and I don't want an app on my phone for every restaurant anyway. Nor do I want a list of dozens of bookmarks for restaurants, without a way to discover new ones. Not that it matters, because I think we've seen pretty clearly that consumers as a whole are going to just go with whatever's easiest for them. And anyone who is going to build out the infrastructure that Doordash and Grubhub have so they can own the customer relationship due to a superior UX is going to extract as much value as they can as well, or they won't be able to keep up with the competition in terms of UX or ads. It feels like a fairly intractable problem without regulation, which I'm generally skeptical of. But maybe that's the answer here. I do wonder if Google and Apple could add "order online" functionality to their maps programs without too much trouble. Their interests might be more aligned with restaurants such that they could take 5-10% instead of 30%.

thatfrenchguy 6y ago
You could also go out, and get the food from the restaurant itself, instead of having a low-wage worker do it for you.
- baggy_trough 6y ago
  That can be a lot of effort, and it's essentially taking money away from the low wage worker.
  - AlexandrB 6y ago
    So the choice is: a. Take money from the low-wage worker at the restaurant. b. Take money away from the low-wage delivery worker. I think I'll choose the one that doesn't divert 30% of my money to a monopoly-seeking "start-up" in California.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  With the discounts and such, it often costs less to use DoorDash.
  - AlexandrB 6y ago
    These will go away once DoorDash needs to be profitable. At best, this is cheese in the mousetrap. Legally, it should be regarded as predatory pricing used to drive their competitors (the restaurants themselves) out of the delivery industry.
- ryanwaggoner 6y ago
  I do that frequently as well, but that's sometimes not an option (like if my daughter is already asleep, for example).
- xenihn 6y ago
  No car atm, and I'm not taking public transit during SIP.
triceratops 6y ago
> it's often horribly painful. You have to call on the phone The horror, having to speak to another human being. Can you imagine? Someone who can answer questions about the menu in real-time, tell you if substitutions or modifications are possible, make recommendations, tell you if you're ordering enough or too much, accommodate dietary issues or preferences? Terrible experience, just terrible. It's a wonder we put up with it for nearly a century. /s
- ryanwaggoner 6y ago
  I'm guessing you haven't called too many restaurants in NYC to order delivery. It's laughable that you think some random little restaurant is going to offer some kind of concierge ordering service like you're describing. I've literally never had a single one of those things happen. Mostly it's just unintelligible noises and you just hope and pray they heard you right, entered it into the system right, and didn't steal your credit card info. There's a reason people vastly prefer to order online vs. calling on the phone.
Apocryphon 6y ago
> You have to call on the phone, which is already a huge hit to user experience Wasn't Google's big tech demo for Duplex exactly about automating that away anyway
205guy 6y ago
I agree with the original article that the platforms are screwing over the small businesses, but I think this comment about the end-user experience is very important too. Some people don't like talking on the phone, some people just like the convenience of one app to order any kind of food. Like it or not, in aggregate, people value convenience and low price over quality of experience and fairness. I think there are a lot of variables in play. First is about restaurants as commodity. The problem is that in the US, this is often literally true. Chain restaurant (franchises) all have the same menu, same suppliers, same process. Yet they still compete with "mom&pop" places where recipes are unique, food is locally sourced (sometimes), and they are pouring their sweat and tears into the business to make a living. People say they want to support their local businesses, but then convenience or price wins out in the end. Another factor is the asymmetry between small-business owner restaurants and the nation-wide delivery platforms. Industrial food chains like Taco Bell and Chipotle's can negotiate national contracts (and pass the costs to their franchisees), but every independent restaurant is at a disadvantage. Independent restaurants are usually overloaded already dealing with suppliers, employees, and landlords, and they are not savvy about all the issues with online advertising and marketing. Finally, there is the deception. The platforms have slick marketing and sell one rosey outlook to the restaurants, get the contract signed, then do a lot of other shady things as this original article points out. It would be great if the restaurant owners could understand these marketing practices and insist on contracts that protect them. Given that most owners are probably too busy and not knowledgeable about online marketing, it would be great if there were small-business associations that stood up and insisted on fair terms for all small businesses. And absent that, there should be regulations and enforcement. Yes, the online advertising industry definitely needs more regulation, and if the small businesses are too fragmented to stand up together, the government should step in to make laws and stop the abuses.
autarch 6y ago
A lot of restaurants I like have stood up ordering sites on Square and other POS providers like Toast. They got the sites up quickly and they're quite usable. They have to take the time to enter in all the options they support but the end result is good. In my experience it's been better than delivery sites (which I've recently sworn off because of their predatory practices).
deanCommie 6y ago
"This is basically how I live already. I sometimes want something specific from a specific restaurant, but more often than not, I just want something and I browse through Seamless until I see some food that looks good and order it. I don't really know or care where it's coming from as long as it's reasonably priced and has decent ratings." I sincerely and genuinely hope you are the minority because I simply cannot imagine living my life like this and I hope others are not either. Yes, I know there is the archetype of person, especially in tech, that considers food nothing but fuel to keep their brain going. That's the kind that gravitated toward Soylent. I think it's appalling. Food is one the the most important human experiences. It is specific, it is unique, it is cultural. I would put it on the same pantheon as poetry and music in terms of historical and artistic significance, and the gap between the bottom of the barrel and the truely life changing experience. Now, I recognize I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I crave specific dishes from specific restaurants. But most people I know at least follow some form of branching decision tree: "do you feel like Mexican or Japanese?". "okay, sushi or ramen?". "that place across the street or by the park?". "okay should we call them or see if they are on doordash?" I do agree with your other points about the technological factors here, but disagree with the foundation you built it on.

thatfrenchguy 6y ago

You could also go out, and get the food from the restaurant itself, instead of having a low-wage worker do it for you.

baggy_trough 6y ago
That can be a lot of effort, and it's essentially taking money away from the low wage worker.
- AlexandrB 6y ago
  So the choice is: a. Take money from the low-wage worker at the restaurant. b. Take money away from the low-wage delivery worker. I think I'll choose the one that doesn't divert 30% of my money to a monopoly-seeking "start-up" in California.
MattGaiser 6y ago
With the discounts and such, it often costs less to use DoorDash.
- AlexandrB 6y ago
  These will go away once DoorDash needs to be profitable. At best, this is cheese in the mousetrap. Legally, it should be regarded as predatory pricing used to drive their competitors (the restaurants themselves) out of the delivery industry.
ryanwaggoner 6y ago
I do that frequently as well, but that's sometimes not an option (like if my daughter is already asleep, for example).
xenihn 6y ago
No car atm, and I'm not taking public transit during SIP.

triceratops 6y ago

> it's often horribly painful. You have to call on the phone The horror, having to speak to another human being. Can you imagine? Someone who can answer questions about the menu in real-time, tell you if substitutions or modifications are possible, make recommendations, tell you if you're ordering enough or too much, accommodate dietary issues or preferences? Terrible experience, just terrible. It's a wonder we put up with it for nearly a century. /s

ryanwaggoner 6y ago
I'm guessing you haven't called too many restaurants in NYC to order delivery. It's laughable that you think some random little restaurant is going to offer some kind of concierge ordering service like you're describing. I've literally never had a single one of those things happen. Mostly it's just unintelligible noises and you just hope and pray they heard you right, entered it into the system right, and didn't steal your credit card info. There's a reason people vastly prefer to order online vs. calling on the phone.

Apocryphon 6y ago

> You have to call on the phone, which is already a huge hit to user experience Wasn't Google's big tech demo for Duplex exactly about automating that away anyway

205guy 6y ago

I agree with the original article that the platforms are screwing over the small businesses, but I think this comment about the end-user experience is very important too. Some people don't like talking on the phone, some people just like the convenience of one app to order any kind of food. Like it or not, in aggregate, people value convenience and low price over quality of experience and fairness. I think there are a lot of variables in play. First is about restaurants as commodity. The problem is that in the US, this is often literally true. Chain restaurant (franchises) all have the same menu, same suppliers, same process. Yet they still compete with "mom&pop" places where recipes are unique, food is locally sourced (sometimes), and they are pouring their sweat and tears into the business to make a living. People say they want to support their local businesses, but then convenience or price wins out in the end. Another factor is the asymmetry between small-business owner restaurants and the nation-wide delivery platforms. Industrial food chains like Taco Bell and Chipotle's can negotiate national contracts (and pass the costs to their franchisees), but every independent restaurant is at a disadvantage. Independent restaurants are usually overloaded already dealing with suppliers, employees, and landlords, and they are not savvy about all the issues with online advertising and marketing. Finally, there is the deception. The platforms have slick marketing and sell one rosey outlook to the restaurants, get the contract signed, then do a lot of other shady things as this original article points out. It would be great if the restaurant owners could understand these marketing practices and insist on contracts that protect them. Given that most owners are probably too busy and not knowledgeable about online marketing, it would be great if there were small-business associations that stood up and insisted on fair terms for all small businesses. And absent that, there should be regulations and enforcement. Yes, the online advertising industry definitely needs more regulation, and if the small businesses are too fragmented to stand up together, the government should step in to make laws and stop the abuses.

autarch 6y ago

A lot of restaurants I like have stood up ordering sites on Square and other POS providers like Toast. They got the sites up quickly and they're quite usable. They have to take the time to enter in all the options they support but the end result is good. In my experience it's been better than delivery sites (which I've recently sworn off because of their predatory practices).

deanCommie 6y ago

"This is basically how I live already. I sometimes want something specific from a specific restaurant, but more often than not, I just want something and I browse through Seamless until I see some food that looks good and order it. I don't really know or care where it's coming from as long as it's reasonably priced and has decent ratings." I sincerely and genuinely hope you are the minority because I simply cannot imagine living my life like this and I hope others are not either. Yes, I know there is the archetype of person, especially in tech, that considers food nothing but fuel to keep their brain going. That's the kind that gravitated toward Soylent. I think it's appalling. Food is one the the most important human experiences. It is specific, it is unique, it is cultural. I would put it on the same pantheon as poetry and music in terms of historical and artistic significance, and the gap between the bottom of the barrel and the truely life changing experience. Now, I recognize I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I crave specific dishes from specific restaurants. But most people I know at least follow some form of branching decision tree: "do you feel like Mexican or Japanese?". "okay, sushi or ramen?". "that place across the street or by the park?". "okay should we call them or see if they are on doordash?" I do agree with your other points about the technological factors here, but disagree with the foundation you built it on.