4 ms·

>It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment So? If you’re going to judge every argument by its slimiest advocate,

by SilasX 7y ago

>It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment So? If you’re going to judge every argument by its slimiest advocate, then every argument can be dismissed without a thought. >Where? Where to start? It was pretty thoroughly discussed. From a quick search: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code >It'd only be a turnabout if they were ridiculing specific people who made a claim that "any laid-off worker could just learn to code." But this seems to be generalized harassment against and entire class of people. IOW, it's fine to ignore when those nebulous other people at my journal ridicule coal miners with unrealistic expectations, but when it starts to affect me, then you've suddenly crossed an impermissible line. (Edit: sorry for the late update for that last section, selection; they somehow broke test highlighting in iOS 13...)

Goronmon 7y ago
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code I don't see anything examples in there showing journalist telling laid off people to "just learn to code". Unless you believe that writing stories about people switching careers is actually an implied demand that people switch careers, which seems like a strange takeaway.
- SilasX 7y ago
  Every story has a framing, and this one's an implication of typicality. By the way they were framed, the clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career. It's (also) a mistake to say that, because they didn't explicitly say that view, they weren't promoting it by their choice of framing and emphasis.
  - Goronmon 7y ago
    Do you have an article you feel was that you feel is framing the issue as "its not big deal for anyone to learn to code"?
    - SilasX 7y ago
      Sure, the one my opponent on this issue[1] was citing in his/her favor: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industry-coding-kentucky-hillbillies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industr... Could you really say readers won't go away thinking "hm, guess this seems like a viable post-coal career"? [1] I don't know a better term; can we not make a thing about the label I chose here? Just suggest a better one if you don't like it.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - ardy42 7y ago
        > Could you really say readers won't go away thinking "hm, guess this seems like a viable post-coal career"? I could see readers going away thinking it's a possible post-coal career for some, but that's a far cry from "a clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career." Would you walk away from this article thinking that participating in triathlons is a viable hobby for senior citizens? 'Iron Nun,' 86, forgets sneakers for triathlon — and still finishes race: https://www.today.com/news/iron-nun-86-forgets-sneakers-triathlon-still-finishes-race-t101950 https://www.today.com/news/iron-nun-86-forgets-sneakers-tria...
        SilasX 7y ago
        >I could see readers going away thinking it's a possible post-coal career for some, but that's a far cry from "a clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career." Then I'm glad to hear you're unusually hype resistant. >Would you walk away from this article thinking that participating in triathlons is a viable hobby for senior citizens? No, that's clearly framed as an out-of-the-ordinary feat for an individual (nickname indicating uniqueness, "and still finishes"), and about a hobby rather than a new core income source.
- listenallyall 7y ago
  Not taking sides in the argument, but it appears to be verified that Joe Biden directly addressed coal miners at a New Hampshire rally, saying “Anybody who can go down 3,000 feet in a mine can sure as hell learn to program as well... Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn how to program, for God’s sake!” https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/476391-biden-tells-coal-miners-to-learn-to-code https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/47... https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-new-hampshire-campaign-code-1479913 https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-new-hampshire-campaign-co...
ardy42 7y ago
>>It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment > So? If you’re going to judge every argument by its slimiest advocate, then every argument can be dismissed without a thought. What argument? Just to be clear: we're talking about people taunting the recently laid-of with messages that they should "learn to code." At best, it's just a mindless meme. >>> It was pretty well documented that buzzfeed-style news sites were casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code and make that their new job. >> Where? > Where to start? It was pretty thoroughly discussed. From a quick search: > https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code I read that article. I don't think it supports your idea that Buzzfeed or any other outlet was "casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code." The article cites: 1. A Buzzfeed article that appears to be mocking the idea of out-of-touch techies encouraging people to "learn to code" as some kind of cure all solution: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-you-learn-to-code https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-... (Should You Learn To Code? Find out if there's been an article written telling you specifically to code or not.) 2. An article about Mike Bloomberg criticizing out-of-touch techies like Mark Zuckerberg encouraging people to "learn to code" as some kind of cure all solution: https://gigaom.com/2014/04/09/michael-bloomberg-you-cant-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/ https://gigaom.com/2014/04/09/michael-bloomberg-you-cant-tea... ("You’re not going to teach a coal miner to code. Mark Zuckerberg says you teach them [people] to code and everything will be great. I don’t know how to break it to you . . . but no.") 3. A profile in the Guardian about some former coal miners who actually learned to code and started a web and app design company: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industry-coding-kentucky-hillbillies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industr.... 4. Another article about the same coal miners. Apparently they wanted to prove Mike Bloomberg wrong: https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/ https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-.... Then it's all stuff about /pol/ threads and harassment. I think you've been misinformed.
- SilasX 7y ago
  >What argument? The one I gave in my first comment here, the one apparent to most people following the history: "hey, I guess it really isn't so easy to just learn to code after a layoff and make that your new job." If I can summarize the rest of your comment, it sounds like you're saying that, after ignoring context, history, and subtext, and focusing solely on the three words, then there's nothing to the argument. And then, because the coal miner story didn't explicitly say "oh, hey, this must be something every coal miner can do", then obviously the publication is 100% innocent of promoting a zeitgeist of everyone easily slipping into coding no matter what their previous career. And then, because I go in, interpreting the events with such context, history, and subtext, then I'm less informed than you, someone who is deliberately filtering out such subtext and framing. There's a lot I could say about that, but it's probably enough to say: no, that's not generally "how it works", and I would be tremendously surprised if you approached any other story with such filters.

by SilasX 7y ago

Goronmon 7y ago

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code I don't see anything examples in there showing journalist telling laid off people to "just learn to code". Unless you believe that writing stories about people switching careers is actually an implied demand that people switch careers, which seems like a strange takeaway.

SilasX 7y ago
Every story has a framing, and this one's an implication of typicality. By the way they were framed, the clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career. It's (also) a mistake to say that, because they didn't explicitly say that view, they weren't promoting it by their choice of framing and emphasis.
- Goronmon 7y ago
  Do you have an article you feel was that you feel is framing the issue as "its not big deal for anyone to learn to code"?
  - SilasX 7y ago
    Sure, the one my opponent on this issue[1] was citing in his/her favor: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industry-coding-kentucky-hillbillies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industr... Could you really say readers won't go away thinking "hm, guess this seems like a viable post-coal career"? [1] I don't know a better term; can we not make a thing about the label I chose here? Just suggest a better one if you don't like it.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - ardy42 7y ago
      > Could you really say readers won't go away thinking "hm, guess this seems like a viable post-coal career"? I could see readers going away thinking it's a possible post-coal career for some, but that's a far cry from "a clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career." Would you walk away from this article thinking that participating in triathlons is a viable hobby for senior citizens? 'Iron Nun,' 86, forgets sneakers for triathlon — and still finishes race: https://www.today.com/news/iron-nun-86-forgets-sneakers-triathlon-still-finishes-race-t101950 https://www.today.com/news/iron-nun-86-forgets-sneakers-tria...
      - SilasX 7y ago
        >I could see readers going away thinking it's a possible post-coal career for some, but that's a far cry from "a clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career." Then I'm glad to hear you're unusually hype resistant. >Would you walk away from this article thinking that participating in triathlons is a viable hobby for senior citizens? No, that's clearly framed as an out-of-the-ordinary feat for an individual (nickname indicating uniqueness, "and still finishes"), and about a hobby rather than a new core income source.
listenallyall 7y ago
Not taking sides in the argument, but it appears to be verified that Joe Biden directly addressed coal miners at a New Hampshire rally, saying “Anybody who can go down 3,000 feet in a mine can sure as hell learn to program as well... Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn how to program, for God’s sake!” https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/476391-biden-tells-coal-miners-to-learn-to-code https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/47... https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-new-hampshire-campaign-code-1479913 https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-new-hampshire-campaign-co...

ardy42 7y ago

>>It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment > So? If you’re going to judge every argument by its slimiest advocate, then every argument can be dismissed without a thought. What argument? Just to be clear: we're talking about people taunting the recently laid-of with messages that they should "learn to code." At best, it's just a mindless meme. >>> It was pretty well documented that buzzfeed-style news sites were casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code and make that their new job. >> Where? > Where to start? It was pretty thoroughly discussed. From a quick search: > https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code I read that article. I don't think it supports your idea that Buzzfeed or any other outlet was "casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code." The article cites: 1. A Buzzfeed article that appears to be mocking the idea of out-of-touch techies encouraging people to "learn to code" as some kind of cure all solution: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-you-learn-to-code https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-... (Should You Learn To Code? Find out if there's been an article written telling you specifically to code or not.) 2. An article about Mike Bloomberg criticizing out-of-touch techies like Mark Zuckerberg encouraging people to "learn to code" as some kind of cure all solution: https://gigaom.com/2014/04/09/michael-bloomberg-you-cant-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/ https://gigaom.com/2014/04/09/michael-bloomberg-you-cant-tea... ("You’re not going to teach a coal miner to code. Mark Zuckerberg says you teach them [people] to code and everything will be great. I don’t know how to break it to you . . . but no.") 3. A profile in the Guardian about some former coal miners who actually learned to code and started a web and app design company: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industry-coding-kentucky-hillbillies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industr.... 4. Another article about the same coal miners. Apparently they wanted to prove Mike Bloomberg wrong: https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/ https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-.... Then it's all stuff about /pol/ threads and harassment. I think you've been misinformed.

SilasX 7y ago
>What argument? The one I gave in my first comment here, the one apparent to most people following the history: "hey, I guess it really isn't so easy to just learn to code after a layoff and make that your new job." If I can summarize the rest of your comment, it sounds like you're saying that, after ignoring context, history, and subtext, and focusing solely on the three words, then there's nothing to the argument. And then, because the coal miner story didn't explicitly say "oh, hey, this must be something every coal miner can do", then obviously the publication is 100% innocent of promoting a zeitgeist of everyone easily slipping into coding no matter what their previous career. And then, because I go in, interpreting the events with such context, history, and subtext, then I'm less informed than you, someone who is deliberately filtering out such subtext and framing. There's a lot I could say about that, but it's probably enough to say: no, that's not generally "how it works", and I would be tremendously surprised if you approached any other story with such filters.