6 ms·

> Well that’s a loaded framing. It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment: https://twitter.com/chick_in_kiev/st

by ardy42 6y ago

> Well that’s a loaded framing. It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment: https://twitter.com/chick_in_kiev/status/1088590587731808256 https://twitter.com/chick_in_kiev/status/1088590587731808256 > It was pretty well documented that buzzfeed-style news sites were casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code and make that their new job. Where? > It’s a mistake to ridicule this turnabout as some kind of anti-media or alt-right thing. It'd only be a turnabout if they were ridiculing specific people who made a claim that "any laid-off worker could just learn to code." But this seems to be generalized harassment against and entire class of people.

SilasX 6y ago
>It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment So? If you’re going to judge every argument by its slimiest advocate, then every argument can be dismissed without a thought. >Where? Where to start? It was pretty thoroughly discussed. From a quick search: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code >It'd only be a turnabout if they were ridiculing specific people who made a claim that "any laid-off worker could just learn to code." But this seems to be generalized harassment against and entire class of people. IOW, it's fine to ignore when those nebulous other people at my journal ridicule coal miners with unrealistic expectations, but when it starts to affect me, then you've suddenly crossed an impermissible line. (Edit: sorry for the late update for that last section, selection; they somehow broke test highlighting in iOS 13...)
- Goronmon 6y ago
  https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code I don't see anything examples in there showing journalist telling laid off people to "just learn to code". Unless you believe that writing stories about people switching careers is actually an implied demand that people switch careers, which seems like a strange takeaway.
  - SilasX 6y ago
    Every story has a framing, and this one's an implication of typicality. By the way they were framed, the clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career. It's (also) a mistake to say that, because they didn't explicitly say that view, they weren't promoting it by their choice of framing and emphasis.
    - Goronmon 6y ago
      Do you have an article you feel was that you feel is framing the issue as "its not big deal for anyone to learn to code"?
      - SilasX 6y ago
        Sure, the one my opponent on this issue[1] was citing in his/her favor: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industry-coding-kentucky-hillbillies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industr... Could you really say readers won't go away thinking "hm, guess this seems like a viable post-coal career"? [1] I don't know a better term; can we not make a thing about the label I chose here? Just suggest a better one if you don't like it.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        ardy42 6y ago
        > Could you really say readers won't go away thinking "hm, guess this seems like a viable post-coal career"? I could see readers going away thinking it's a possible post-coal career for some, but that's a far cry from "a clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career." Would you walk away from this article thinking that participating in triathlons is a viable hobby for senior citizens? 'Iron Nun,' 86, forgets sneakers for triathlon — and still finishes race: https://www.today.com/news/iron-nun-86-forgets-sneakers-triathlon-still-finishes-race-t101950 https://www.today.com/news/iron-nun-86-forgets-sneakers-tria...
- ardy42 6y ago
  >>It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment > So? If you’re going to judge every argument by its slimiest advocate, then every argument can be dismissed without a thought. What argument? Just to be clear: we're talking about people taunting the recently laid-of with messages that they should "learn to code." At best, it's just a mindless meme. >>> It was pretty well documented that buzzfeed-style news sites were casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code and make that their new job. >> Where? > Where to start? It was pretty thoroughly discussed. From a quick search: > https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code I read that article. I don't think it supports your idea that Buzzfeed or any other outlet was "casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code." The article cites: 1. A Buzzfeed article that appears to be mocking the idea of out-of-touch techies encouraging people to "learn to code" as some kind of cure all solution: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-you-learn-to-code https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-... (Should You Learn To Code? Find out if there's been an article written telling you specifically to code or not.) 2. An article about Mike Bloomberg criticizing out-of-touch techies like Mark Zuckerberg encouraging people to "learn to code" as some kind of cure all solution: https://gigaom.com/2014/04/09/michael-bloomberg-you-cant-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/ https://gigaom.com/2014/04/09/michael-bloomberg-you-cant-tea... ("You’re not going to teach a coal miner to code. Mark Zuckerberg says you teach them [people] to code and everything will be great. I don’t know how to break it to you . . . but no.") 3. A profile in the Guardian about some former coal miners who actually learned to code and started a web and app design company: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industry-coding-kentucky-hillbillies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industr.... 4. Another article about the same coal miners. Apparently they wanted to prove Mike Bloomberg wrong: https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/ https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-.... Then it's all stuff about /pol/ threads and harassment. I think you've been misinformed.
  - SilasX 6y ago
    >What argument? The one I gave in my first comment here, the one apparent to most people following the history: "hey, I guess it really isn't so easy to just learn to code after a layoff and make that your new job." If I can summarize the rest of your comment, it sounds like you're saying that, after ignoring context, history, and subtext, and focusing solely on the three words, then there's nothing to the argument. And then, because the coal miner story didn't explicitly say "oh, hey, this must be something every coal miner can do", then obviously the publication is 100% innocent of promoting a zeitgeist of everyone easily slipping into coding no matter what their previous career. And then, because I go in, interpreting the events with such context, history, and subtext, then I'm less informed than you, someone who is deliberately filtering out such subtext and framing. There's a lot I could say about that, but it's probably enough to say: no, that's not generally "how it works", and I would be tremendously surprised if you approached any other story with such filters.
iateanapple 6y ago
> It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment So why “learn to code” and why does it sting journalists so badly? They could have just said “Boo hoo get a new job”. > But this seems to be generalized harassment against and entire class of people. A class of people sure is a sympathetic way to frame progressive left wing journalists.

by ardy42 6y ago

SilasX 6y ago

>It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment So? If you’re going to judge every argument by its slimiest advocate, then every argument can be dismissed without a thought. >Where? Where to start? It was pretty thoroughly discussed. From a quick search: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code >It'd only be a turnabout if they were ridiculing specific people who made a claim that "any laid-off worker could just learn to code." But this seems to be generalized harassment against and entire class of people. IOW, it's fine to ignore when those nebulous other people at my journal ridicule coal miners with unrealistic expectations, but when it starts to affect me, then you've suddenly crossed an impermissible line. (Edit: sorry for the late update for that last section, selection; they somehow broke test highlighting in iOS 13...)

Goronmon 6y ago
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code I don't see anything examples in there showing journalist telling laid off people to "just learn to code". Unless you believe that writing stories about people switching careers is actually an implied demand that people switch careers, which seems like a strange takeaway.
- SilasX 6y ago
  Every story has a framing, and this one's an implication of typicality. By the way they were framed, the clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career. It's (also) a mistake to say that, because they didn't explicitly say that view, they weren't promoting it by their choice of framing and emphasis.
  - Goronmon 6y ago
    Do you have an article you feel was that you feel is framing the issue as "its not big deal for anyone to learn to code"?
    - SilasX 6y ago
      Sure, the one my opponent on this issue[1] was citing in his/her favor: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industry-coding-kentucky-hillbillies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industr... Could you really say readers won't go away thinking "hm, guess this seems like a viable post-coal career"? [1] I don't know a better term; can we not make a thing about the label I chose here? Just suggest a better one if you don't like it.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - ardy42 6y ago
        > Could you really say readers won't go away thinking "hm, guess this seems like a viable post-coal career"? I could see readers going away thinking it's a possible post-coal career for some, but that's a far cry from "a clear implication was that it's no big deal for anyone to learn to code as a very late second career." Would you walk away from this article thinking that participating in triathlons is a viable hobby for senior citizens? 'Iron Nun,' 86, forgets sneakers for triathlon — and still finishes race: https://www.today.com/news/iron-nun-86-forgets-sneakers-triathlon-still-finishes-race-t101950 https://www.today.com/news/iron-nun-86-forgets-sneakers-tria...
ardy42 6y ago
>>It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment > So? If you’re going to judge every argument by its slimiest advocate, then every argument can be dismissed without a thought. What argument? Just to be clear: we're talking about people taunting the recently laid-of with messages that they should "learn to code." At best, it's just a mindless meme. >>> It was pretty well documented that buzzfeed-style news sites were casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code and make that their new job. >> Where? > Where to start? It was pretty thoroughly discussed. From a quick search: > https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/learn-to-code I read that article. I don't think it supports your idea that Buzzfeed or any other outlet was "casually promoting the idea that any laid-off worker could just learn to code." The article cites: 1. A Buzzfeed article that appears to be mocking the idea of out-of-touch techies encouraging people to "learn to code" as some kind of cure all solution: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-you-learn-to-code https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-... (Should You Learn To Code? Find out if there's been an article written telling you specifically to code or not.) 2. An article about Mike Bloomberg criticizing out-of-touch techies like Mark Zuckerberg encouraging people to "learn to code" as some kind of cure all solution: https://gigaom.com/2014/04/09/michael-bloomberg-you-cant-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/ https://gigaom.com/2014/04/09/michael-bloomberg-you-cant-tea... ("You’re not going to teach a coal miner to code. Mark Zuckerberg says you teach them [people] to code and everything will be great. I don’t know how to break it to you . . . but no.") 3. A profile in the Guardian about some former coal miners who actually learned to code and started a web and app design company: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industry-coding-kentucky-hillbillies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/tech-industr.... 4. Another article about the same coal miners. Apparently they wanted to prove Mike Bloomberg wrong: https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/ https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-.... Then it's all stuff about /pol/ threads and harassment. I think you've been misinformed.
- SilasX 6y ago
  >What argument? The one I gave in my first comment here, the one apparent to most people following the history: "hey, I guess it really isn't so easy to just learn to code after a layoff and make that your new job." If I can summarize the rest of your comment, it sounds like you're saying that, after ignoring context, history, and subtext, and focusing solely on the three words, then there's nothing to the argument. And then, because the coal miner story didn't explicitly say "oh, hey, this must be something every coal miner can do", then obviously the publication is 100% innocent of promoting a zeitgeist of everyone easily slipping into coding no matter what their previous career. And then, because I go in, interpreting the events with such context, history, and subtext, then I'm less informed than you, someone who is deliberately filtering out such subtext and framing. There's a lot I could say about that, but it's probably enough to say: no, that's not generally "how it works", and I would be tremendously surprised if you approached any other story with such filters.

iateanapple 6y ago

> It's not just framing. At least some of it originated on 4chan as deliberate harassment So why “learn to code” and why does it sting journalists so badly? They could have just said “Boo hoo get a new job”. > But this seems to be generalized harassment against and entire class of people. A class of people sure is a sympathetic way to frame progressive left wing journalists.