4 ms·

I can offer some counters to that off the bat, Nier Automata, Deus Ex, Destiny, The Witcher, Stanley Parable, Undertale If anything I think games with the rig

by Grimm1 6y ago

I can offer some counters to that off the bat, Nier Automata, Deus Ex, Destiny, The Witcher, Stanley Parable, Undertale If anything I think games with the right attention can have better narratives than literature because they aren't limited to words in assisting the narrative with visualization and depiction of events / emotion. Much like pulp fiction and early sci-fi were treated as second class literature games range the spectrum as well. I think we can likely both continue to find examples to fit our points and it just shows the range games have as a medium.

watwut 6y ago
From those I played Deus Ex (I decided to not play games anymore) and narrative in that rather average ordinary scifi book with rather normal storyline. I am not saying bad book, but it is not some kind of narrative masterpiece.
- Grimm1 6y ago
  I can only speak to the reboot, and I found those fantastic, but we are now in the realm of opinion which ultimately is where the conversation is going to wind up anyway so I'm not going to push back on it just that we had different experiences.
billfruit 6y ago
That literature does not use visual images is its advantage: it isn't contstrained or restricted to a single visual realisation; every on who reads it's reconstructs in their own unique manner, also same reader may imagine it in a different manner at a different time. Also that mental image is out of the bounds of normal space and time; such freedom is what makes it special in that regard. Take witcher for example, the games offers a single model of Geralt of Rivia, while someone reading the Witcher novel is free to construct their own model, their own landscape,..etc. My point is that narratives are not a strong point of games, rather it might even be a weak point; they are not what makes games unique or different from other forms of culture. The more games move away from a narrative structure, the more unique and compelling experiences they are able to offer, is my view of the matter.
- Grimm1 6y ago
  I got your point, I disagree and continue to.
- Cyph0n 6y ago
  Do you also think narrative is a weak point of movies and TV? Everything is constructed (filmed) for the viewer there, too. I also enjoy the visualization and imagination involved with reading books, but if you are limiting the definition of "narrative" to how much visualization is involved, then I don't think it makes sense to directly compare books to movies and games.
  - billfruit 6y ago
    Yes I do believe movies and TV offer lesser narrative scope than literature. When you read you get your own visualisation, when you watch a movie/tv series you get somebody else's and often simplified visualisation/construction.
- scollet 6y ago
  If you get the chance (it is exclusive), I consider Bloodborne to be a contender for narrative excellence in games. There is complete mechanical proof of the player's knowledge and understanding of the narrative and there is no wrong way to play. You simply get a different interpretation of the story depending on how curious you are and how closely you examine the textual evidence they elude to. The storytelling can seem obtuse. I argue it works in support of the world design. You are the narrator.
  - hnick 6y ago
    The Souls series in general. I'd argue the world is the main character, but you have to pay attention to learn about it. And no matter how hard you try there will be gaps and conjecture.
- hnick 6y ago
  Is the best literature then a blank page? Or maybe I should edit to sound less dismissive because that wasn't my intent. How little can you say and how much work should the reader/viewer/player have to do before we stop really considering it a narrative? And if those gaps exist, couldn't we argue they aren't really part of the narrative? Unless, of course, the gaps are intentional but I'd argue as one example that vague character descriptions are a lack of fidelity in written language rather than intentional.
hnick 6y ago
I think the important distinction is games that have a story in them, compared with those that use the medium to tell the story in a way that other mediums cannot. I can't attest to Destiny and my memory of Deus Ex is hazy but all the other games you listed are firmly in the second category.

by Grimm1 6y ago

watwut 6y ago

From those I played Deus Ex (I decided to not play games anymore) and narrative in that rather average ordinary scifi book with rather normal storyline. I am not saying bad book, but it is not some kind of narrative masterpiece.

Grimm1 6y ago
I can only speak to the reboot, and I found those fantastic, but we are now in the realm of opinion which ultimately is where the conversation is going to wind up anyway so I'm not going to push back on it just that we had different experiences.

billfruit 6y ago

That literature does not use visual images is its advantage: it isn't contstrained or restricted to a single visual realisation; every on who reads it's reconstructs in their own unique manner, also same reader may imagine it in a different manner at a different time. Also that mental image is out of the bounds of normal space and time; such freedom is what makes it special in that regard. Take witcher for example, the games offers a single model of Geralt of Rivia, while someone reading the Witcher novel is free to construct their own model, their own landscape,..etc. My point is that narratives are not a strong point of games, rather it might even be a weak point; they are not what makes games unique or different from other forms of culture. The more games move away from a narrative structure, the more unique and compelling experiences they are able to offer, is my view of the matter.

Grimm1 6y ago
I got your point, I disagree and continue to.
Cyph0n 6y ago
Do you also think narrative is a weak point of movies and TV? Everything is constructed (filmed) for the viewer there, too. I also enjoy the visualization and imagination involved with reading books, but if you are limiting the definition of "narrative" to how much visualization is involved, then I don't think it makes sense to directly compare books to movies and games.
- billfruit 6y ago
  Yes I do believe movies and TV offer lesser narrative scope than literature. When you read you get your own visualisation, when you watch a movie/tv series you get somebody else's and often simplified visualisation/construction.
scollet 6y ago
If you get the chance (it is exclusive), I consider Bloodborne to be a contender for narrative excellence in games. There is complete mechanical proof of the player's knowledge and understanding of the narrative and there is no wrong way to play. You simply get a different interpretation of the story depending on how curious you are and how closely you examine the textual evidence they elude to. The storytelling can seem obtuse. I argue it works in support of the world design. You are the narrator.
- hnick 6y ago
  The Souls series in general. I'd argue the world is the main character, but you have to pay attention to learn about it. And no matter how hard you try there will be gaps and conjecture.
hnick 6y ago
Is the best literature then a blank page? Or maybe I should edit to sound less dismissive because that wasn't my intent. How little can you say and how much work should the reader/viewer/player have to do before we stop really considering it a narrative? And if those gaps exist, couldn't we argue they aren't really part of the narrative? Unless, of course, the gaps are intentional but I'd argue as one example that vague character descriptions are a lack of fidelity in written language rather than intentional.

hnick 6y ago

I think the important distinction is games that have a story in them, compared with those that use the medium to tell the story in a way that other mediums cannot. I can't attest to Destiny and my memory of Deus Ex is hazy but all the other games you listed are firmly in the second category.