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One of the main reasons why OOP is popular is not even talked about - the ability for AUTOCOMPLETE in the IDE to work extremely well. For example, I have an ob

One of the main reasons why OOP is popular is not even talked about - the ability for AUTOCOMPLETE in the IDE to work extremely well. For example, I have an object... what do I do with it? So I hit the '.' on my keyboard and read the list of things that the object can do. This is why OOP is popular, it allows better tooling. If people want to move beyond OOP then they need to think about how the new style integrates with the IDE so that the programmer can hit the '.' or equivalent and get a list of useful things to do with the object in question.

kqr 6y ago
This is a common idea but I'm skeptical it's that simple. Haskell has a powerful enough type system that it can enable "hole-driven development" where you specify the type of your code and then leave a "hole" in the implementation -- anywhere in the implementation, including making the entire implementation a hole! -- and the tools can suggest what should go in the hole, leaving new holes in the code. Then you can incrementally resolve smaller and smaller holes based on the suggestions you get, and finally you have a completely tool-written program, where you just helped disambiguate when you had to. This is the '.' on steroids. Haskell is not popular.
- vkou 6y ago
  Haskell is weighed down with the problem that by the time I'm five pages into a "Haskell is actually easy, and let me show you how" tutorial, the average reader's eyes glaze over thanks to passages like: "While >>= and return are the basic monadic sequencing operations, we also need some monadic primitives. A monadic primitive is simply an operation that uses the insides of the monad abstraction and taps into the `wheels and gears' that make the monad work. For example, in the IO monad, operators such as putChar are primitive since they deal with the inner workings of the IO monad. Similarly, our state monad uses two primitives: readSM and updateSM. Note that these depend on the inner structure of the monad..." Or, possibly because when I make a post on Hacker News about how difficult it is to implement Quicksort in Haskell, the first response is a four-line Haskell implementation of Quicksort, spawning a 50-post subthread which points out that it's not actually an implementation of Quicksort, because it does not have the same performance characteristics as Quicksort, and instead has the performance characteristics of a lethargic water buffalo. By the end of the thread, the question of whether it is possible to write a Quicksort in Haskell that has the performance characteristics of Quicksort is left as an open research question.
  - microtherion 6y ago
    Instead of downvoting the parent, Haskell devotees would do well to recognize that this is a pretty good representation of the hurdle that would-be recruits to Haskell face.
  - kv_hrishikesh 6y ago
    There is a reason why Haskell is not popular. But I don't think the impenetrable passages about Monads are the reason behind it. It is more about what you gain by adopting Haskell and powering through the impenetrable passages. If it is not blazing fast runtime performance and fast speed of development and maintainable code, then Haskell is pointless. As such, if there are those kind of benefits available, there is plenty of extra brainpower available among developers to comprehend passages.
- Der_Einzige 6y ago
  Haskell is popular in universities, fintech companies, and among the FP crowed at large. Many programmers know of it's benefits and simply avoid it because FP is very difficult for many to code in and Haskell is trying to be FP only...
  - spekcular 6y ago
    Popular in which fintech companies? I don't believe this is true, but I would be happy to wrong. Jane Street uses OCaml, but of course that's not Haskell. All the other finance firms seem to use pretty standard C/C++ because they need the low latency.
    - brobinson 6y ago
      Standard Chartered uses their own dialect of Haskell. There's some talks on youtube about it.
    - antonvs 6y ago
      I've done Haskell contract work at multiple large Wall Street investment banks. It's not like it's their only language - these are large orgs with lots of smart people, sometimes some of them use Haskell.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  Agda literally has this "hole-driven development" as a standard feature in its IDE modes. Not only that, but when developing Agda code you get a list of every binding in scope, as well as a prompt of the type that must be provided to resolve the "hole". The expectation is that every part of developing Agda code can be expressed as a kind of "autocomplete", if desired.
- hota_mazi 6y ago
  > This is the '.' on steroids. Not really. This is all still painfully manual. Both type hole development and auto completion are enabled by static types. Haskell could theoretically benefit from all these advantages that mainstream statically typed enjoy thanks to IDEA, Visual Studio, or XCode but the Haskell community has this arrogant attitude that they are above such "pragmatic" tools and as such, never took the importance of IDE's seriously. So when you watch a video on Haskell's awesome type hole development, the developer is often using vim and typing everything by hand. In 2020.
  - dunefox 6y ago
    Except VS Code supports Haskell pretty well. And implementing IDEs is hard work, why do that when it's such a niche language that editors like VS Code suffice?
  - lalaithion 6y ago
    https://twitter.com/edwinbrady/status/1052913078927613954?lang=en https://twitter.com/edwinbrady/status/1052913078927613954?la...
dunefox 6y ago
> One of the main reasons why OOP is popular is not even talked about - the ability for AUTOCOMPLETE in the IDE to work extremely well. That's just dot-syntax and modules. That has nothing to do with OOP itself. Nothing is keeping you from doing that in functional languages that support proper modules.
overgard 6y ago
Well generally speaking you're just describing a search problem: I have this data, what operations can I perform on it? Hypothetically you could do something like if I type a keycode after a variable it lists functions that can be run on it. Its just a tooling thing not really a language design thing.
- iainmerrick 6y ago
  But their point is -- and I agree! -- that with unfashionable OO languages there’s nothing hypothetical about it, it’s completely mainstream. All the IDEs have done this for years and it works extremely well.
simongray 6y ago
> I have an object... what do I do with it? So I hit the '.' on my keyboard and read the list of things that the object can do. As a counterpoint (relevant Rich Hickey rant): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSEQfqNYNAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSEQfqNYNAc
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  I have a counterpoint. OOP made simple things way too complicated and that resulted in more jobs in software development. Its the sad truth. Or the happy one, depending on which side of the fence one is.
- oftenwrong 6y ago
  The poor design of that class aside, I would rather have the specific version rather than the unspecified version. If I have a HttpServletRequest somewhere in my code, I have a good idea of its structure just by knowing its type. The same cannot be said of a blob of maps and lists.
  - simongray 6y ago
    > If I have a HttpServletRequest somewhere in my code, I have a good idea of its structure just by knowing its type. The same cannot be said of a blob of maps and lists. Non-trivial data structures are always conformed to some specification, doesn't matter if its Clojure or an OOP-language. If you receive an HTTP request over the wire you will have to check it. Once you conform it to the specification you know exactly how it looks and there's no need to jump through hoops to access the information.
    - kqr 6y ago
      But with proper static typing you don't have to check it because you already know it's correct since it's construction. It relieves a lot of mental burden for me to not even have to consider the case that it might be incorrect, as long as I'm dealing with structures internal to my program. I have a lot of respect for Rich Hickey and I feel like he Understands something that goes straight over my head, but his appreciation for generic, shapeless maps and lists is something I just don't get.

kqr 6y ago

This is a common idea but I'm skeptical it's that simple. Haskell has a powerful enough type system that it can enable "hole-driven development" where you specify the type of your code and then leave a "hole" in the implementation -- anywhere in the implementation, including making the entire implementation a hole! -- and the tools can suggest what should go in the hole, leaving new holes in the code. Then you can incrementally resolve smaller and smaller holes based on the suggestions you get, and finally you have a completely tool-written program, where you just helped disambiguate when you had to. This is the '.' on steroids. Haskell is not popular.

vkou 6y ago
Haskell is weighed down with the problem that by the time I'm five pages into a "Haskell is actually easy, and let me show you how" tutorial, the average reader's eyes glaze over thanks to passages like: "While >>= and return are the basic monadic sequencing operations, we also need some monadic primitives. A monadic primitive is simply an operation that uses the insides of the monad abstraction and taps into the `wheels and gears' that make the monad work. For example, in the IO monad, operators such as putChar are primitive since they deal with the inner workings of the IO monad. Similarly, our state monad uses two primitives: readSM and updateSM. Note that these depend on the inner structure of the monad..." Or, possibly because when I make a post on Hacker News about how difficult it is to implement Quicksort in Haskell, the first response is a four-line Haskell implementation of Quicksort, spawning a 50-post subthread which points out that it's not actually an implementation of Quicksort, because it does not have the same performance characteristics as Quicksort, and instead has the performance characteristics of a lethargic water buffalo. By the end of the thread, the question of whether it is possible to write a Quicksort in Haskell that has the performance characteristics of Quicksort is left as an open research question.
- microtherion 6y ago
  Instead of downvoting the parent, Haskell devotees would do well to recognize that this is a pretty good representation of the hurdle that would-be recruits to Haskell face.
- kv_hrishikesh 6y ago
  There is a reason why Haskell is not popular. But I don't think the impenetrable passages about Monads are the reason behind it. It is more about what you gain by adopting Haskell and powering through the impenetrable passages. If it is not blazing fast runtime performance and fast speed of development and maintainable code, then Haskell is pointless. As such, if there are those kind of benefits available, there is plenty of extra brainpower available among developers to comprehend passages.
Der_Einzige 6y ago
Haskell is popular in universities, fintech companies, and among the FP crowed at large. Many programmers know of it's benefits and simply avoid it because FP is very difficult for many to code in and Haskell is trying to be FP only...
- spekcular 6y ago
  Popular in which fintech companies? I don't believe this is true, but I would be happy to wrong. Jane Street uses OCaml, but of course that's not Haskell. All the other finance firms seem to use pretty standard C/C++ because they need the low latency.
  - brobinson 6y ago
    Standard Chartered uses their own dialect of Haskell. There's some talks on youtube about it.
  - antonvs 6y ago
    I've done Haskell contract work at multiple large Wall Street investment banks. It's not like it's their only language - these are large orgs with lots of smart people, sometimes some of them use Haskell.
zozbot234 6y ago
Agda literally has this "hole-driven development" as a standard feature in its IDE modes. Not only that, but when developing Agda code you get a list of every binding in scope, as well as a prompt of the type that must be provided to resolve the "hole". The expectation is that every part of developing Agda code can be expressed as a kind of "autocomplete", if desired.
hota_mazi 6y ago
> This is the '.' on steroids. Not really. This is all still painfully manual. Both type hole development and auto completion are enabled by static types. Haskell could theoretically benefit from all these advantages that mainstream statically typed enjoy thanks to IDEA, Visual Studio, or XCode but the Haskell community has this arrogant attitude that they are above such "pragmatic" tools and as such, never took the importance of IDE's seriously. So when you watch a video on Haskell's awesome type hole development, the developer is often using vim and typing everything by hand. In 2020.
- dunefox 6y ago
  Except VS Code supports Haskell pretty well. And implementing IDEs is hard work, why do that when it's such a niche language that editors like VS Code suffice?
- lalaithion 6y ago
  https://twitter.com/edwinbrady/status/1052913078927613954?lang=en https://twitter.com/edwinbrady/status/1052913078927613954?la...

dunefox 6y ago

> One of the main reasons why OOP is popular is not even talked about - the ability for AUTOCOMPLETE in the IDE to work extremely well. That's just dot-syntax and modules. That has nothing to do with OOP itself. Nothing is keeping you from doing that in functional languages that support proper modules.

overgard 6y ago

Well generally speaking you're just describing a search problem: I have this data, what operations can I perform on it? Hypothetically you could do something like if I type a keycode after a variable it lists functions that can be run on it. Its just a tooling thing not really a language design thing.

iainmerrick 6y ago
But their point is -- and I agree! -- that with unfashionable OO languages there’s nothing hypothetical about it, it’s completely mainstream. All the IDEs have done this for years and it works extremely well.

simongray 6y ago

> I have an object... what do I do with it? So I hit the '.' on my keyboard and read the list of things that the object can do. As a counterpoint (relevant Rich Hickey rant): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSEQfqNYNAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSEQfqNYNAc

onemoresoop 6y ago
I have a counterpoint. OOP made simple things way too complicated and that resulted in more jobs in software development. Its the sad truth. Or the happy one, depending on which side of the fence one is.
oftenwrong 6y ago
The poor design of that class aside, I would rather have the specific version rather than the unspecified version. If I have a HttpServletRequest somewhere in my code, I have a good idea of its structure just by knowing its type. The same cannot be said of a blob of maps and lists.
- simongray 6y ago
  > If I have a HttpServletRequest somewhere in my code, I have a good idea of its structure just by knowing its type. The same cannot be said of a blob of maps and lists. Non-trivial data structures are always conformed to some specification, doesn't matter if its Clojure or an OOP-language. If you receive an HTTP request over the wire you will have to check it. Once you conform it to the specification you know exactly how it looks and there's no need to jump through hoops to access the information.
  - kqr 6y ago
    But with proper static typing you don't have to check it because you already know it's correct since it's construction. It relieves a lot of mental burden for me to not even have to consider the case that it might be incorrect, as long as I'm dealing with structures internal to my program. I have a lot of respect for Rich Hickey and I feel like he Understands something that goes straight over my head, but his appreciation for generic, shapeless maps and lists is something I just don't get.