4 ms·

This is nothing else than the US panicking over losing their technological and economic supremacy, and using brute force to damage a competitor. Disgusting and

by Udik 6y ago

This is nothing else than the US panicking over losing their technological and economic supremacy, and using brute force to damage a competitor. Disgusting and very dangerous for the whole world.

saystupidthings 6y ago
Chances someone named "Udik" is a Chinese shill? 100% Edit: also paid by damore lmao what a terrible person
0xfaded 6y ago
I'd say it's an unnecessary dilution of national brand power. I know people who refuse to buy things directly from China, yet are perfectly happy buying the same items through a western distributer. That price delta is directly measurable brand equity that ends up as taxable money spent in western economies with no real value add. Pulling this crap only incentives China to develop their own silicon. Since the west can't compete on manufacturing cost or quality, Chinese products will continue to dominate. But the importance of incorporating western technologies will deminish since there will be no legal alternative. The end result is just plain brand dilution, since not using western technology will become the new norm. I'm not really personally concerned, the west will learn sooner or later that it actually needs to build something to remain competitive. A service based economy is simply everyone serving each other coffee, while gradually eroding existing equity so we can keep buying coffee beans.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  >Pulling this crap only incentives China to develop their own silicon. Operating under the assumption this isnt already a priority to them, which I would say is a big assumption. You're looking at this as if it was in absence of the rest of the trade footings of the two countries. The west is building stuff in this industry - semi conductors. The east is operating heavy industrial espionage to try and steal all the secrets of it so they can take it from the west. I'm not sure why you think this trade war situation is indicative of the US not making things - its exactly a heavily US industry where China steals technology to leapfrog actual competition. If China steals all your research you're going to have trouble affording coffee beans. If they steal your research and then open factories up you're going broke. So the importance of producing is true, but its tied to the importance of protecting your advantages, national and otherwise.
  - 0xfaded 6y ago
    If you're scared of cheap knockoffs, it's exactly the perception that your product is somehow superior that you want. Part of that might be less risk exposure to lawsuits for incorporating stolen IP. But if you eliminate the legal option, the grey area alternative becomes normalized. IP is also a highly artificial construct. If all documents were suddenly in the open, and your competitors are suddenly able to build a better product, how comfortable can you be that you can actually compete on quality?
    - nsporillo 6y ago
      It would simply devolve into whichever nation decides to put the most money into subsidies, removing environmental protections, and facilitating slave-like labor conditions.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > The west is building stuff in this industry - semi conductors. The east is operating heavy industrial espionage to try and steal all the secrets of it so they can take it from the west. Let's not forget that a good part of the NSA's business is industrial espionage, allegedly also heavily in Western Allies.
micromacro 6y ago
Americans spreaded fake new 2 years ago stating that there are SPY-chips hiddenly built into Apple, Microsoft, Amazon and Google products by Chinese. The companies investigated their chips and didn't find anything. Americans lost any credibility.
AndyMcConachie 6y ago
Don't know why you're downvoted given that you're correct. The end result of this is to ensure that China develops their own semi conductor industry. Besides the short term loss of sales, in the long term new companies will emerge that compete with the American semi conductor industry. It's just a dumb move all around.
- micromacro 6y ago
  unpleasant truth
- ericmay 6y ago
  > The end result of this is to ensure that China develops their own semi conductor industry Seems to me that's happening either way and probably always was. Why wouldn't they?
  - rjzzleep 6y ago
    It actually was fast tracked by the trade war. Government mandated domestic development of certain things after the US made it clear to China that they're not trustworthy trading partner. Not that China is, but kind of besides the point. Similar to how the google ban fast tracked Huawei working on google free systems e.g. buying third party map services like TomTom. Bad for Google good for competition. Basically the US has lost its standing thanks to Trumps bully diplomacy[1]. “Some if not all regional countries may harbour concerns about the security ramifications of using Huawei, but there are real pragmatic considerations,” said Collin Koh Swee Lean, a research fellow at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore. “Cost-wise in particular, Chinese offers for infrastructure development present more attractive propositions.” https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3012820/huawei-ban-why-asian-countries-are-shunning-trumps https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/301282...
    - ericmay 6y ago
      > It actually was fast tracked by the trade war. Government mandated domestic development of certain things after the US made it clear to China that they're not trustworthy trading partner. Not that China is, but kind of besides the point. I'm not sure why that's besides the point? The U.S. for years worked to invest in China and build them as a great trading partner and the CCP continued to just steal trade secrets and do everything in their power to undermine the U.S.. And it's probably true that this development was fast tracked by the trade war... but so what? This was coming since the CCP didn't want to be a partner with the West, so why wait around to cut the ties? It's going to happen either way, why not happen on your terms? W.r.t Trump's "bully" diplomacy - I mean, playing nice certainly didn't work. We don't need to and shouldn't be trading partners with China so long as they're acting against U.S. and western interests in general. The U.S. tried to engage and endured years of malevolent activity by the CCP only to have the actions worsen over time. So... I'm not really sure what the advantage to the U.S. is besides having a big market. Ban Chinese products in the U.S. and China can ban U.S. products. Whatever. > Cost-wise in particular, Chinese offers for infrastructure development present more attractive propositions Sure. For now. And if you only want to look at cost. Maybe you want to look at other factors, like maybe you're Vietnam and concerned about the Chinese ramming your fishing boats? [1] [1] https://www.news.com.au/world/south-china-sea-tensions-at-new-high-after-vietnamese-boat-rammed-and-sunk/news-story/10188f3d7c1d7336bcaffafd742defab https://www.news.com.au/world/south-china-sea-tensions-at-ne...
stareatgoats 6y ago
Yes, this is correct, it's the sign of the US losing its post WW2 grip on world affairs. But the normally balanced and insightful HN crowd is drowned out on topics like these. Pre-WW1 style national pride and competition for markets and raw materials is back with a vengeance it seems, and it's not only the US who got it; Russia, China, the EU and more got it too. It doesn't bode well.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Pre-WW1 style national pride and competition for markets and raw materials is back with a vengeance it seems I don't think those are the reasons, they are consequences. The reason, in my opinion, is just money. Your income depends on your job and the success of your company, which largely depends on the economy at large and, in case of large powers, on their world-wide power projection. People understand this instinctively, it's pure tribal behavior. I believe most world-politics interpretation is just motivated reasoning, and you can change somebody's worldview by making them the beneficiary of a trust that's invested in whatever country they dislike. When they draw dividends from their enemy's success, they'll come to see them in a different light.

by Udik 6y ago

This is nothing else than the US panicking over losing their technological and economic supremacy, and using brute force to damage a competitor. Disgusting and very dangerous for the whole world.

saystupidthings 6y ago

Chances someone named "Udik" is a Chinese shill? 100% Edit: also paid by damore lmao what a terrible person

0xfaded 6y ago

I'd say it's an unnecessary dilution of national brand power. I know people who refuse to buy things directly from China, yet are perfectly happy buying the same items through a western distributer. That price delta is directly measurable brand equity that ends up as taxable money spent in western economies with no real value add. Pulling this crap only incentives China to develop their own silicon. Since the west can't compete on manufacturing cost or quality, Chinese products will continue to dominate. But the importance of incorporating western technologies will deminish since there will be no legal alternative. The end result is just plain brand dilution, since not using western technology will become the new norm. I'm not really personally concerned, the west will learn sooner or later that it actually needs to build something to remain competitive. A service based economy is simply everyone serving each other coffee, while gradually eroding existing equity so we can keep buying coffee beans.

LegitShady 6y ago
>Pulling this crap only incentives China to develop their own silicon. Operating under the assumption this isnt already a priority to them, which I would say is a big assumption. You're looking at this as if it was in absence of the rest of the trade footings of the two countries. The west is building stuff in this industry - semi conductors. The east is operating heavy industrial espionage to try and steal all the secrets of it so they can take it from the west. I'm not sure why you think this trade war situation is indicative of the US not making things - its exactly a heavily US industry where China steals technology to leapfrog actual competition. If China steals all your research you're going to have trouble affording coffee beans. If they steal your research and then open factories up you're going broke. So the importance of producing is true, but its tied to the importance of protecting your advantages, national and otherwise.
- 0xfaded 6y ago
  If you're scared of cheap knockoffs, it's exactly the perception that your product is somehow superior that you want. Part of that might be less risk exposure to lawsuits for incorporating stolen IP. But if you eliminate the legal option, the grey area alternative becomes normalized. IP is also a highly artificial construct. If all documents were suddenly in the open, and your competitors are suddenly able to build a better product, how comfortable can you be that you can actually compete on quality?
  - nsporillo 6y ago
    It would simply devolve into whichever nation decides to put the most money into subsidies, removing environmental protections, and facilitating slave-like labor conditions.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > The west is building stuff in this industry - semi conductors. The east is operating heavy industrial espionage to try and steal all the secrets of it so they can take it from the west. Let's not forget that a good part of the NSA's business is industrial espionage, allegedly also heavily in Western Allies.

micromacro 6y ago

Americans spreaded fake new 2 years ago stating that there are SPY-chips hiddenly built into Apple, Microsoft, Amazon and Google products by Chinese. The companies investigated their chips and didn't find anything. Americans lost any credibility.

AndyMcConachie 6y ago

Don't know why you're downvoted given that you're correct. The end result of this is to ensure that China develops their own semi conductor industry. Besides the short term loss of sales, in the long term new companies will emerge that compete with the American semi conductor industry. It's just a dumb move all around.

micromacro 6y ago
unpleasant truth
ericmay 6y ago
> The end result of this is to ensure that China develops their own semi conductor industry Seems to me that's happening either way and probably always was. Why wouldn't they?
- rjzzleep 6y ago
  It actually was fast tracked by the trade war. Government mandated domestic development of certain things after the US made it clear to China that they're not trustworthy trading partner. Not that China is, but kind of besides the point. Similar to how the google ban fast tracked Huawei working on google free systems e.g. buying third party map services like TomTom. Bad for Google good for competition. Basically the US has lost its standing thanks to Trumps bully diplomacy[1]. “Some if not all regional countries may harbour concerns about the security ramifications of using Huawei, but there are real pragmatic considerations,” said Collin Koh Swee Lean, a research fellow at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore. “Cost-wise in particular, Chinese offers for infrastructure development present more attractive propositions.” https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3012820/huawei-ban-why-asian-countries-are-shunning-trumps https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/301282...
  - ericmay 6y ago
    > It actually was fast tracked by the trade war. Government mandated domestic development of certain things after the US made it clear to China that they're not trustworthy trading partner. Not that China is, but kind of besides the point. I'm not sure why that's besides the point? The U.S. for years worked to invest in China and build them as a great trading partner and the CCP continued to just steal trade secrets and do everything in their power to undermine the U.S.. And it's probably true that this development was fast tracked by the trade war... but so what? This was coming since the CCP didn't want to be a partner with the West, so why wait around to cut the ties? It's going to happen either way, why not happen on your terms? W.r.t Trump's "bully" diplomacy - I mean, playing nice certainly didn't work. We don't need to and shouldn't be trading partners with China so long as they're acting against U.S. and western interests in general. The U.S. tried to engage and endured years of malevolent activity by the CCP only to have the actions worsen over time. So... I'm not really sure what the advantage to the U.S. is besides having a big market. Ban Chinese products in the U.S. and China can ban U.S. products. Whatever. > Cost-wise in particular, Chinese offers for infrastructure development present more attractive propositions Sure. For now. And if you only want to look at cost. Maybe you want to look at other factors, like maybe you're Vietnam and concerned about the Chinese ramming your fishing boats? [1] [1] https://www.news.com.au/world/south-china-sea-tensions-at-new-high-after-vietnamese-boat-rammed-and-sunk/news-story/10188f3d7c1d7336bcaffafd742defab https://www.news.com.au/world/south-china-sea-tensions-at-ne...

stareatgoats 6y ago

Yes, this is correct, it's the sign of the US losing its post WW2 grip on world affairs. But the normally balanced and insightful HN crowd is drowned out on topics like these. Pre-WW1 style national pride and competition for markets and raw materials is back with a vengeance it seems, and it's not only the US who got it; Russia, China, the EU and more got it too. It doesn't bode well.

luckylion 6y ago
> Pre-WW1 style national pride and competition for markets and raw materials is back with a vengeance it seems I don't think those are the reasons, they are consequences. The reason, in my opinion, is just money. Your income depends on your job and the success of your company, which largely depends on the economy at large and, in case of large powers, on their world-wide power projection. People understand this instinctively, it's pure tribal behavior. I believe most world-politics interpretation is just motivated reasoning, and you can change somebody's worldview by making them the beneficiary of a trust that's invested in whatever country they dislike. When they draw dividends from their enemy's success, they'll come to see them in a different light.