4 ms·

> For example, it isn't a coincidence that the success of free markets occurred at the same time as when slavery collapsed worldwide. Slavery ended around the

> For example, it isn't a coincidence that the success of free markets occurred at the same time as when slavery collapsed worldwide. Slavery ended around the world during the age of protectionism, not free markets. For example, abraham lincoln who freed the slaves also declared : "Give us a protective tariff, and we shall have the greatest nation on earth" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... The US was a protectionist anti-free trade nation until the 1950s. You are forgetting that race based slavery began under capitalism, the genocide of native americans happened during capitalism, etc. You can't falsely cherrypick one data point and ignore all the others that refute your claim.

WalterBright 6y ago
Doesn't matter what Lincoln said. The Civil War was caused by the South's attempts to protect itself from capitalism. Didn't work. Slavery ended in Russia at the same time. Slavery simply couldn't compete with free markets. > race based slavery began under capitalism, Nope. Slavery had gone on for millennia. How about the ancient Egyptians enslaving the Hebrews? How about Columbus enslaving the Indians? (The native americans practiced slavery, too.) Slavery died out in the northern colonies before 1800 because it was unprofitable, i.e. free markets killed it. It was dying in the south, too, until Eli Whitney revived it with his cotton gin. But that was just a temporary reprieve, it was dying again by the 1850s, and the South tried to save it by seceding. Free markets killed slavery, because slavery simply cannot compete with them. > the genocide of native americans happened during capitalism As for genocide, that has happened since the Cro-Magnon killed off the Neandertals. The entire history of humanity is one of violently pushing other people off their lands. Until very recently, when societies have been getting more peaceful, along with the rise of free markets. (For example, after defeating Italy, Japan and Germany in WW2, the US (and Britain and France) gave those countries back to their citizens. How often has that happened?)
- dntbnmpls 6y ago
  > Doesn't matter what Lincoln said. It's not only what lincoln said, it's what the US government did. We've had protectionism from the very beginning. Just because you don't like the reality doesn't mean you get to dismiss it. > The Civil War was caused by the South's attempts to protect itself from capitalism. Actually, it's was the exact opposite. The industrial North favored protectionism to protect manufacturing. The South favored free trade since they wanted to ship cotton to britain. "Slave owners preferred low-cost manual labor with no mechanization. Northern manufacturing interests supported tariffs and protectionism while southern planters demanded free trade.[65] The Democrats in Congress, controlled by Southerners, wrote the tariff laws in the 1830s, 1840s, and 1850s, and kept reducing rates so that the 1857 rates were the lowest since 1816. The Republicans called for an increase in tariffs in the 1860 election. The increases were only enacted in 1861 after Southerners resigned their seats in Congress." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War One of the major reasons for the civil war was the South's insistence on less tariffs and more free trade. Why do you write lies after you've been proven wrong? Once again, for the last time, slave owning south war pro-free trade, the anti-slave north was pro-protectionism. This is a matter of fact. > The entire history of humanity is one of violently pushing other people off their lands. Nope. And race based genocide only occurred during the age of capitalism. Also, there is a difference between "pushing other people off their lands" and systematic racial genocide under the age of capitalism. > (For example, after defeating Italy, Japan and Germany in WW2, the US (and Britain and France) gave those countries back to their citizens. How often has that happened?) Historically, all the time. Almost every empire in human history - from the greeks, romans, mongols, ottomans, etc. Otherwise, we wouldn't have chinese, indians, arabs, etc. Racial genocide was actually very rare. Nations conquered and formed empires. They didn't exterminate. What happened in the US, Canada, Australia, Nazi Germany, etc are outliers. Also, we didn't really give back those countries yet as we have occupying forces in all three nations. But whatever.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    The South was afraid the North would enact tariffs on cotton, thus crippling the only significant product of the Southern economy - cotton. It was about tariffs on cotton. Not anything else. > there is a difference between "pushing other people off their lands" and systematic racial genocide under the age of capitalism. The reservations and Indian nations within the US suggests the former, not the latter. > the greeks, romans, mongols, ottomans They didn't give their conquered territories back. They installed puppet governments that obeyed the conquerors. Japan and Germany are not puppets of the US. > race based genocide only occurred during the age of capitalism "By 1650, hereditary enslavement based upon color, not upon religion, was a bitter reality in the older Catholic colonies of the New World." https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/peter-h-wood-strange-new-land-excerpt.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/peter-h-wood-strang... Also, the slave economy collapsed during the Civil War, while the northern free economy thrived. The reason Lee was even at Gettysburg was because the Confederate army was shoeless and nearby Harrisburg had a shoe factory.
generatorguy 6y ago
Race based slavery began under capitalism? Didn’t slaves build the pyramids? Was there capitalism then? Have you read Sapiens by Harari? It touches on the fact that the Neanderthals and other species of humans died out ... perhaps due to genocide perpetrated by Homo sapiens, prior to the advent of capitalism by any measure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapiens:_A_Brief_History_of_Humankind https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapiens:_A_Brief_History_of_...
- SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
  > Race based slavery began under capitalism? That is trivially false, but I think that he means that the "Atlantic Slave trade" is a) a notable recent occurrence of mass Race based slavery, and b) a capitalistic industry. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- dntbnmpls 6y ago
  > Race based slavery began under capitalism? As best as I can tell, it happened within the past 800 years or so. > Didn’t slaves build the pyramids? Was there capitalism then? Nobody really knows. But certainly it wasn't race based slaves. There is a difference between old world slavery - I conquer you and you become slaves regardless of race vs you are slaves because you are black, asian, native, etc. Tragically, slavery was common in the past but it was "race-blind". > Have you read Sapiens by Harari? I watched his talks - which are interesting, but like all mass produced "pop" history, it's really not that accurate. > It touches on the fact that the Neanderthals and other species of humans died out ... perhaps due to genocide perpetrated by Homo sapiens, prior to the advent of capitalism by any measure. Sure, they died out most likely due to being outcompeted. But once again, being outcompeted for resources is different than modern extermination campaigns where one was simply killed for being native, aborigine, jewish, etc. Where even without any competition for resources, the native americans, aborigines, jews, etc were killed simply for being native american, aborigines, jews, etc.
KaiserPro 6y ago
Slavery hasn't ended. Most of Saudi Arabia/Qatar/UAE is built on "bonded labour" which is slave labour but with a better name.

WalterBright 6y ago

Doesn't matter what Lincoln said. The Civil War was caused by the South's attempts to protect itself from capitalism. Didn't work. Slavery ended in Russia at the same time. Slavery simply couldn't compete with free markets. > race based slavery began under capitalism, Nope. Slavery had gone on for millennia. How about the ancient Egyptians enslaving the Hebrews? How about Columbus enslaving the Indians? (The native americans practiced slavery, too.) Slavery died out in the northern colonies before 1800 because it was unprofitable, i.e. free markets killed it. It was dying in the south, too, until Eli Whitney revived it with his cotton gin. But that was just a temporary reprieve, it was dying again by the 1850s, and the South tried to save it by seceding. Free markets killed slavery, because slavery simply cannot compete with them. > the genocide of native americans happened during capitalism As for genocide, that has happened since the Cro-Magnon killed off the Neandertals. The entire history of humanity is one of violently pushing other people off their lands. Until very recently, when societies have been getting more peaceful, along with the rise of free markets. (For example, after defeating Italy, Japan and Germany in WW2, the US (and Britain and France) gave those countries back to their citizens. How often has that happened?)

dntbnmpls 6y ago
> Doesn't matter what Lincoln said. It's not only what lincoln said, it's what the US government did. We've had protectionism from the very beginning. Just because you don't like the reality doesn't mean you get to dismiss it. > The Civil War was caused by the South's attempts to protect itself from capitalism. Actually, it's was the exact opposite. The industrial North favored protectionism to protect manufacturing. The South favored free trade since they wanted to ship cotton to britain. "Slave owners preferred low-cost manual labor with no mechanization. Northern manufacturing interests supported tariffs and protectionism while southern planters demanded free trade.[65] The Democrats in Congress, controlled by Southerners, wrote the tariff laws in the 1830s, 1840s, and 1850s, and kept reducing rates so that the 1857 rates were the lowest since 1816. The Republicans called for an increase in tariffs in the 1860 election. The increases were only enacted in 1861 after Southerners resigned their seats in Congress." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War One of the major reasons for the civil war was the South's insistence on less tariffs and more free trade. Why do you write lies after you've been proven wrong? Once again, for the last time, slave owning south war pro-free trade, the anti-slave north was pro-protectionism. This is a matter of fact. > The entire history of humanity is one of violently pushing other people off their lands. Nope. And race based genocide only occurred during the age of capitalism. Also, there is a difference between "pushing other people off their lands" and systematic racial genocide under the age of capitalism. > (For example, after defeating Italy, Japan and Germany in WW2, the US (and Britain and France) gave those countries back to their citizens. How often has that happened?) Historically, all the time. Almost every empire in human history - from the greeks, romans, mongols, ottomans, etc. Otherwise, we wouldn't have chinese, indians, arabs, etc. Racial genocide was actually very rare. Nations conquered and formed empires. They didn't exterminate. What happened in the US, Canada, Australia, Nazi Germany, etc are outliers. Also, we didn't really give back those countries yet as we have occupying forces in all three nations. But whatever.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  The South was afraid the North would enact tariffs on cotton, thus crippling the only significant product of the Southern economy - cotton. It was about tariffs on cotton. Not anything else. > there is a difference between "pushing other people off their lands" and systematic racial genocide under the age of capitalism. The reservations and Indian nations within the US suggests the former, not the latter. > the greeks, romans, mongols, ottomans They didn't give their conquered territories back. They installed puppet governments that obeyed the conquerors. Japan and Germany are not puppets of the US. > race based genocide only occurred during the age of capitalism "By 1650, hereditary enslavement based upon color, not upon religion, was a bitter reality in the older Catholic colonies of the New World." https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/peter-h-wood-strange-new-land-excerpt.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/peter-h-wood-strang... Also, the slave economy collapsed during the Civil War, while the northern free economy thrived. The reason Lee was even at Gettysburg was because the Confederate army was shoeless and nearby Harrisburg had a shoe factory.

generatorguy 6y ago

Race based slavery began under capitalism? Didn’t slaves build the pyramids? Was there capitalism then? Have you read Sapiens by Harari? It touches on the fact that the Neanderthals and other species of humans died out ... perhaps due to genocide perpetrated by Homo sapiens, prior to the advent of capitalism by any measure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapiens:_A_Brief_History_of_Humankind https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapiens:_A_Brief_History_of_...

SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
> Race based slavery began under capitalism? That is trivially false, but I think that he means that the "Atlantic Slave trade" is a) a notable recent occurrence of mass Race based slavery, and b) a capitalistic industry. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dntbnmpls 6y ago
> Race based slavery began under capitalism? As best as I can tell, it happened within the past 800 years or so. > Didn’t slaves build the pyramids? Was there capitalism then? Nobody really knows. But certainly it wasn't race based slaves. There is a difference between old world slavery - I conquer you and you become slaves regardless of race vs you are slaves because you are black, asian, native, etc. Tragically, slavery was common in the past but it was "race-blind". > Have you read Sapiens by Harari? I watched his talks - which are interesting, but like all mass produced "pop" history, it's really not that accurate. > It touches on the fact that the Neanderthals and other species of humans died out ... perhaps due to genocide perpetrated by Homo sapiens, prior to the advent of capitalism by any measure. Sure, they died out most likely due to being outcompeted. But once again, being outcompeted for resources is different than modern extermination campaigns where one was simply killed for being native, aborigine, jewish, etc. Where even without any competition for resources, the native americans, aborigines, jews, etc were killed simply for being native american, aborigines, jews, etc.

KaiserPro 6y ago

Slavery hasn't ended. Most of Saudi Arabia/Qatar/UAE is built on "bonded labour" which is slave labour but with a better name.