5 ms·

My observation as an AMAB person: you are absolutely 100% correct in your overall assessment, but I think your perception of relative ease for men has a filter

by mkr-hn 6y ago

My observation as an AMAB person: you are absolutely 100% correct in your overall assessment, but I think your perception of relative ease for men has a filter of survivorship bias. Women aren't given much chance in the first place, but men have to walk a narrow line to access those chances and stay in once they get there. That's if they can walk the line in the first place. The whole thing is a mess for everyone in an assortment of uniquely horrible ways across every intersection.

DoreenMichele 6y ago
but I think your perception of relative ease for men has a filter of survivorship bias Please don't put words in my mouth. My life is hard enough without that. I never expected anything to be easy. Just possible. My Patreon sits at around $150/month and I get the occasional tip while I get accused of being a beggar for expecting pay for my writing at all when all other doors are effectively closed to me for various reasons. I recently quit my local volunteer work in meat space because that, also, wasn't leading to an adequate income. It's a long, sordid tale, but boils down to the same problem dynamics I have everywhere: People value my work but don't want to pay me for it. They end up thinking I do it because I "care" and and they are actively affronted by the idea that I want to make money at it. I get read as very motherly and all this shit and people want me to do things for them out of "love." Meanwhile, no one "loves" me enough to give a damn about the fact that I have literally gone hungry at times and literally had no housing for years. No one is doing a fundraiser for me out of compassion. Etc ad nauseum. I don't think it's easy for me. But I do know it is possible for men and I'm just as competent as any man here and can't get the right doors open that lead to an adequate income while I am given a zillion excuses, which boils down to people justifying the awful way in which this community has treated me for more than a decade. I know of a MtF trans youth who had no trouble whatsoever opening doors and getting money out of people here. I can't do the same and I am treated with enormous suspicion and contempt for even trying to figure it out.
- mkr-hn 6y ago
  I didn't realize you were talking about HN instead of in general. It's weird and fickle. One day you promote collective action on big problems and get lots of upvotes, the next you're run out as a traitor to capitalism. It sounds like you get all of the latter and none of the former.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    I am talking about HN and in general. I had a corporate job for five years as well and I did mention, above, my failure to make sufficient in roads in meat space since getting back into housing. I don't bitch more about HN because while it is infuriating and upsetting I remain dirt poor, HN is generally less bad about most things than most places, so it's all kinds of problematic to harp too much on it here. It amounts to being abusive to some of the better people on the planet. But it's equally problematic to not harp on it. That doesn't solve my problem here either. So even the best of the best that I can find are still failing to go "I know! If we care about the status of women, we should figure out some kind of path forward on helping this very talented, intelligent, educated and persistent woman in our midst who has spent over a decade proving she's absolutely not some kind of man-hating feminazi." I don't think it would be unreasonable at this point for me to just lose my shit and go completely postal over this garbage. I'm not, cuz reasons, but this is pretty goddamned ridiculously extreme stuff that any idiot should be able to see "That ain't right."
- dijit 6y ago
  I understand, I think, that life has certainly been unkind in many areas for you. I know this is going to sound mean, given your context, but that is anecdotal. I know (personally) women who have doors flung open for them for the fact that they are women. I don’t tend to agree with it, but I won’t judge those who take advantage. I know at least one person who uses her femininity very effectively to fund her passion projects. She doesn’t sell her looks or body, she sells “feminity”, as in “an empathetic, sustainable approach to x”. It’s very effective for her at least. With that in mind, I think the parent was being earnest. Hardships happen, sadly what you’ve experienced is also experienced by many people, mostly men. Unfortunately they don’t have much of a voice.
  - mkr-hn 6y ago
    Trading personality for employing unearned traits to get through life sounds like a bad deal. I can perform masculinity to top standards and bullshit my way through life, but then I'd lose myself. I doubt it's any different for AFAB people who lucked into good looks and wished they could thrive on merit.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      Thank you for commenting. I was quite beautiful when I was younger. I was also molested and raped and told it was my fault for being too beautiful to resist. I considered becoming a model at one time. I also was one of the top students of my graduating class, won a National Merit Scholarship to one of the two most prestigious universities in my home state and had other academic accolades. My beauty seems to have been more downside than up. It is actively problematic for trying to pursue a serious career that doesn't in some way trade on your sexuality. Most very successful female singers, actors, etc are beautiful and sexy. The top paid ones don't hesitate to pose nude and trade on their sexuality. Men don't have to trade on their sexuality to get to the top of their field and men have many fields outside of entertainment open to them where they can make good money. In fact, it boils down to this: being successful in a career is what makes a man desirable. But a woman is asked to choose to either be serious or be desirable. I have found my looks and gender to actively be a problem in getting good constructive feedback. I suspect this dynamic is part of why Theranos was valued at $10 billion before being uncovered as a fraud: It was led by a pretty young woman. I suspect Theranos would have deflated as the hot air balloon it was well before it hit $10 billion in valuation if it had been led by a man. I have zero interest in using my looks, sexuality or femininity to open doors for me because I have no desire to follow in the foot steps of Theranos. That company has already done plenty of harm to the status and perception of women.
- thatcat 6y ago
  Men face the same difficulties you describe when starting a career and getting paid for the value they provide. Simply because 1% of men do not face that due to networking or luck does not mean that the vast majority are in some privileged position.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    To be succinct, the main issue I have with HN is that when I try to network and say things like "Email me about that. Let's discuss that issue privately." it typically turns into roughly "Honey, can I get your phone number? Can we have a coffee date (for romantic reasons and not business reasons)?" I strongly suspect this is not a huge issue for men.
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      My experience has led me to believe (as a not famous, not attractive, not well connected man) that I would not get an email back in the first place. I have no idea whether or not that is problematic, but that's my perception: that I wouldn't even get the opportunity to prove myself.
      - DoreenMichele 6y ago
        On the upside, that at least saves the time and energy of trying to figure out how to reply to someone in a way that moves things in the right direction and wondering if you are just crazy and reading in problem behavior when there is none and so forth. I was strung along for months by someone who was married and not telling me that until he finally told me one day that he was married, his marriage was in the toilet and he needed "a friend." I wouldn't have fallen for that if it was clearer to me what actual successful networking looks like. When two hetero men network, saying "Hey, let's have coffee" is a clear and unambiguously platonic proposal. This is not true in my case and it leaves me with serious challenges in figuring out just how on earth you do this. It's only very recently that I have figured out how to get someone to discuss my work with me because those initial inquiries are so often ambiguous. Networking looks not dissimilar to dating in the initial phases and that means I waste a lot of time trying to make a business connection that will never happen because business is not his goal and will never be on the table, no matter how I handle things.

by mkr-hn 6y ago

DoreenMichele 6y ago

but I think your perception of relative ease for men has a filter of survivorship bias Please don't put words in my mouth. My life is hard enough without that. I never expected anything to be easy. Just possible. My Patreon sits at around $150/month and I get the occasional tip while I get accused of being a beggar for expecting pay for my writing at all when all other doors are effectively closed to me for various reasons. I recently quit my local volunteer work in meat space because that, also, wasn't leading to an adequate income. It's a long, sordid tale, but boils down to the same problem dynamics I have everywhere: People value my work but don't want to pay me for it. They end up thinking I do it because I "care" and and they are actively affronted by the idea that I want to make money at it. I get read as very motherly and all this shit and people want me to do things for them out of "love." Meanwhile, no one "loves" me enough to give a damn about the fact that I have literally gone hungry at times and literally had no housing for years. No one is doing a fundraiser for me out of compassion. Etc ad nauseum. I don't think it's easy for me. But I do know it is possible for men and I'm just as competent as any man here and can't get the right doors open that lead to an adequate income while I am given a zillion excuses, which boils down to people justifying the awful way in which this community has treated me for more than a decade. I know of a MtF trans youth who had no trouble whatsoever opening doors and getting money out of people here. I can't do the same and I am treated with enormous suspicion and contempt for even trying to figure it out.

mkr-hn 6y ago
I didn't realize you were talking about HN instead of in general. It's weird and fickle. One day you promote collective action on big problems and get lots of upvotes, the next you're run out as a traitor to capitalism. It sounds like you get all of the latter and none of the former.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  I am talking about HN and in general. I had a corporate job for five years as well and I did mention, above, my failure to make sufficient in roads in meat space since getting back into housing. I don't bitch more about HN because while it is infuriating and upsetting I remain dirt poor, HN is generally less bad about most things than most places, so it's all kinds of problematic to harp too much on it here. It amounts to being abusive to some of the better people on the planet. But it's equally problematic to not harp on it. That doesn't solve my problem here either. So even the best of the best that I can find are still failing to go "I know! If we care about the status of women, we should figure out some kind of path forward on helping this very talented, intelligent, educated and persistent woman in our midst who has spent over a decade proving she's absolutely not some kind of man-hating feminazi." I don't think it would be unreasonable at this point for me to just lose my shit and go completely postal over this garbage. I'm not, cuz reasons, but this is pretty goddamned ridiculously extreme stuff that any idiot should be able to see "That ain't right."
dijit 6y ago
I understand, I think, that life has certainly been unkind in many areas for you. I know this is going to sound mean, given your context, but that is anecdotal. I know (personally) women who have doors flung open for them for the fact that they are women. I don’t tend to agree with it, but I won’t judge those who take advantage. I know at least one person who uses her femininity very effectively to fund her passion projects. She doesn’t sell her looks or body, she sells “feminity”, as in “an empathetic, sustainable approach to x”. It’s very effective for her at least. With that in mind, I think the parent was being earnest. Hardships happen, sadly what you’ve experienced is also experienced by many people, mostly men. Unfortunately they don’t have much of a voice.
- mkr-hn 6y ago
  Trading personality for employing unearned traits to get through life sounds like a bad deal. I can perform masculinity to top standards and bullshit my way through life, but then I'd lose myself. I doubt it's any different for AFAB people who lucked into good looks and wished they could thrive on merit.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    Thank you for commenting. I was quite beautiful when I was younger. I was also molested and raped and told it was my fault for being too beautiful to resist. I considered becoming a model at one time. I also was one of the top students of my graduating class, won a National Merit Scholarship to one of the two most prestigious universities in my home state and had other academic accolades. My beauty seems to have been more downside than up. It is actively problematic for trying to pursue a serious career that doesn't in some way trade on your sexuality. Most very successful female singers, actors, etc are beautiful and sexy. The top paid ones don't hesitate to pose nude and trade on their sexuality. Men don't have to trade on their sexuality to get to the top of their field and men have many fields outside of entertainment open to them where they can make good money. In fact, it boils down to this: being successful in a career is what makes a man desirable. But a woman is asked to choose to either be serious or be desirable. I have found my looks and gender to actively be a problem in getting good constructive feedback. I suspect this dynamic is part of why Theranos was valued at $10 billion before being uncovered as a fraud: It was led by a pretty young woman. I suspect Theranos would have deflated as the hot air balloon it was well before it hit $10 billion in valuation if it had been led by a man. I have zero interest in using my looks, sexuality or femininity to open doors for me because I have no desire to follow in the foot steps of Theranos. That company has already done plenty of harm to the status and perception of women.
thatcat 6y ago
Men face the same difficulties you describe when starting a career and getting paid for the value they provide. Simply because 1% of men do not face that due to networking or luck does not mean that the vast majority are in some privileged position.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  To be succinct, the main issue I have with HN is that when I try to network and say things like "Email me about that. Let's discuss that issue privately." it typically turns into roughly "Honey, can I get your phone number? Can we have a coffee date (for romantic reasons and not business reasons)?" I strongly suspect this is not a huge issue for men.
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    My experience has led me to believe (as a not famous, not attractive, not well connected man) that I would not get an email back in the first place. I have no idea whether or not that is problematic, but that's my perception: that I wouldn't even get the opportunity to prove myself.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      On the upside, that at least saves the time and energy of trying to figure out how to reply to someone in a way that moves things in the right direction and wondering if you are just crazy and reading in problem behavior when there is none and so forth. I was strung along for months by someone who was married and not telling me that until he finally told me one day that he was married, his marriage was in the toilet and he needed "a friend." I wouldn't have fallen for that if it was clearer to me what actual successful networking looks like. When two hetero men network, saying "Hey, let's have coffee" is a clear and unambiguously platonic proposal. This is not true in my case and it leaves me with serious challenges in figuring out just how on earth you do this. It's only very recently that I have figured out how to get someone to discuss my work with me because those initial inquiries are so often ambiguous. Networking looks not dissimilar to dating in the initial phases and that means I waste a lot of time trying to make a business connection that will never happen because business is not his goal and will never be on the table, no matter how I handle things.