6 ms·

Why are fabs being built in az?

kyrra 6y ago
Guesses: away from fault lines? Dry climate? They get some nasty rains that flood things, but better than tornados, hurricanes, and earthquakes.
- throwawaybanjo1 6y ago
  ^ This. Also explains why there's so many data centers. Cost too. Land & power are both cheap.
  - madengr 6y ago
    I'm sure evaporative cooling is cheaper too, compared to some place where it's too humid.
magicsmoke 6y ago
ASU puts out some pretty talented semiconductor engineers, and ON Semiconductor is a major supplier based in Phoenix
- 0xDEADBEF 6y ago
  ASU isn't exactly a premier college for engineering. They have good parties tho
  - magicsmoke 6y ago
    Maybe not for undergrad, but undergraduates don't learn how to do semiconductor manufacturing.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
  And there’s existing talent because Intel has chip fabs there.
antishatter 6y ago
Intel has a big AZ presence, I wonder why AZ specifically. Maybe climate? Maybe so TSMC can poach some talent? It's a really great question and if anyone has specifics I hope they chime in.
- elihu 6y ago
  Probably also a pretty good existing ecosystem of 3rd party contractors and suppliers that support the Intel fabs and would be happy to do business with TSMC as well. edit: also, a minor quibble: I wish we'd get away from calling it "poaching", as if there is anything illegal or immoral about employers competing for employees.
clumsysmurf 6y ago
Business friendly state that has low oversight into what goes into our environment. We have an EPA superfund site near an old Motorola plant.
- khuey 6y ago
  Santa Clara County is full of Superfund sites from old semiconductor factories so there's nothing new there.
lpetross 6y ago
AZ has been a semiconductor hub for decades. Intel, Motorola, ON and many others produce chips there. There is huge infrastructure and talent base for semiconductor manufacturing. Geographically, Chandler as a suburb of Phoenix has consistent weather, relatively cheap land, and access to water - as counter-intuitive as it sounds. I did my PhD in semiconductors at ASU and there might has well been a bus direct from the University to Intel. Keep in mind, we're talking about PRODUCTION, not R&D. R&D happens elsewhere, this is just where the big plants go.
- specialist 6y ago
  Thank you for providing context. During the 80s & 90s, one of my besties worked on building fabs in and around PHX. Really exotic stuff that I didn't really understand. He'd joke that he had a PhD in welding. He claimed at the time that fabs were migrating from California to PHX and ABX to avoid environmental regulation (enforcement) and cheaper water. While he was concerned about building future superfund sites, he also knew he'd never make that kind of money doing any other kind of work. If you don't mind, I'd really appreciate your take. I still have family in Phoenix. I've always been concerned about toxins (air and water). And I'm also grumpy about megacorps guzzling all the water at discount prices. So while I'd love for TSMC to build their fabs in the USA, I'm worried about the downsides too. Are my concerns justified?
  - lpetross 6y ago
    Semiconductor plants use a ridiculous amount of potentially harmful chemicals as part of the manufacturing process. Most of the material is recaptured and never makes it into the local environment. Intel uses probably close to 10M gallons of water a DAY and recycles the vast majority. Before water enters a fab it goes through a water purification plant to eliminate any impurities. As the water leaves the fab it goes through another process to decontaminate and recycle it. The process of purifying water is expensive and consumes energy so they try and recycle as much as possible. The number 96% sticks out in my mind but that is an old number. Simply stated, I do not worry about local pollution from semiconductor manufacturing in the United States due to all the regulations. I would live next door to the Chandler plant happily. Pull open Google Maps Satellite View, type in "Intel Chandler Soccer Field" Look at all the green area around the plant, that's where the 4% that isn't recycled goes. You will also see a beautiful golf course and nice houses just east of the plant. Side note: as I understand it, plants moved to AZ/NM because they wanted to eliminate process variance. Weather and water are a major source of variance. So they want places that reduce variance while simultaneously being favorable business environments. Reference: https://ktar.com/story/76977/intel-plant-replenishes-water-supply-in-chandler/ https://ktar.com/story/76977/intel-plant-replenishes-water-s...
baybal2 6y ago
> Why are fabs being built in az? If you are asking about Intel ones, and ones owned by the defence hardware industry, it is the same reason why China is building their fabs as far inland as Xian, and other obscure and scattered across places: they are harder to bomb there.
robotnikman 6y ago
Other Fabs are already located in the area, and in general the state has been good towards businesses. Also ASU is nearby so they have a talent pool of new engineers to pull from. Anecdote, since I've moved to AZ myself 5 years ago I've noticed massive growth in tech businesses in Phoenix and the surrounding areas. Cost of living for people here is also cheaper compared to to other cities I've lived in, and many people I've met who moved from California have told me how its cheaper here. Commuting is not too bad depending on where you live, and there are options which promote commuting or carpooling such as HOV lanes, Bike Lanes, and the light-rail system (the light rail is hit or miss depending on who you ask).
- blhack 6y ago
  Greetz from Tempe.
  - robotnikman 6y ago
    And hello from Chandler :)
- mech422 6y ago
  Mesa Checking In... /wave
  - vyrotek 6y ago
    Hi neighbor

Guesses: away from fault lines? Dry climate? They get some nasty rains that flood things, but better than tornados, hurricanes, and earthquakes.

throwawaybanjo1 6y ago
^ This. Also explains why there's so many data centers. Cost too. Land & power are both cheap.
- madengr 6y ago
  I'm sure evaporative cooling is cheaper too, compared to some place where it's too humid.

magicsmoke 6y ago

ASU puts out some pretty talented semiconductor engineers, and ON Semiconductor is a major supplier based in Phoenix

0xDEADBEF 6y ago
ASU isn't exactly a premier college for engineering. They have good parties tho
- magicsmoke 6y ago
  Maybe not for undergrad, but undergraduates don't learn how to do semiconductor manufacturing.
3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
And there’s existing talent because Intel has chip fabs there.

antishatter 6y ago

Intel has a big AZ presence, I wonder why AZ specifically. Maybe climate? Maybe so TSMC can poach some talent? It's a really great question and if anyone has specifics I hope they chime in.

elihu 6y ago
Probably also a pretty good existing ecosystem of 3rd party contractors and suppliers that support the Intel fabs and would be happy to do business with TSMC as well. edit: also, a minor quibble: I wish we'd get away from calling it "poaching", as if there is anything illegal or immoral about employers competing for employees.

clumsysmurf 6y ago

Business friendly state that has low oversight into what goes into our environment. We have an EPA superfund site near an old Motorola plant.

khuey 6y ago
Santa Clara County is full of Superfund sites from old semiconductor factories so there's nothing new there.

lpetross 6y ago

AZ has been a semiconductor hub for decades. Intel, Motorola, ON and many others produce chips there. There is huge infrastructure and talent base for semiconductor manufacturing. Geographically, Chandler as a suburb of Phoenix has consistent weather, relatively cheap land, and access to water - as counter-intuitive as it sounds. I did my PhD in semiconductors at ASU and there might has well been a bus direct from the University to Intel. Keep in mind, we're talking about PRODUCTION, not R&D. R&D happens elsewhere, this is just where the big plants go.

specialist 6y ago
Thank you for providing context. During the 80s & 90s, one of my besties worked on building fabs in and around PHX. Really exotic stuff that I didn't really understand. He'd joke that he had a PhD in welding. He claimed at the time that fabs were migrating from California to PHX and ABX to avoid environmental regulation (enforcement) and cheaper water. While he was concerned about building future superfund sites, he also knew he'd never make that kind of money doing any other kind of work. If you don't mind, I'd really appreciate your take. I still have family in Phoenix. I've always been concerned about toxins (air and water). And I'm also grumpy about megacorps guzzling all the water at discount prices. So while I'd love for TSMC to build their fabs in the USA, I'm worried about the downsides too. Are my concerns justified?
- lpetross 6y ago
  Semiconductor plants use a ridiculous amount of potentially harmful chemicals as part of the manufacturing process. Most of the material is recaptured and never makes it into the local environment. Intel uses probably close to 10M gallons of water a DAY and recycles the vast majority. Before water enters a fab it goes through a water purification plant to eliminate any impurities. As the water leaves the fab it goes through another process to decontaminate and recycle it. The process of purifying water is expensive and consumes energy so they try and recycle as much as possible. The number 96% sticks out in my mind but that is an old number. Simply stated, I do not worry about local pollution from semiconductor manufacturing in the United States due to all the regulations. I would live next door to the Chandler plant happily. Pull open Google Maps Satellite View, type in "Intel Chandler Soccer Field" Look at all the green area around the plant, that's where the 4% that isn't recycled goes. You will also see a beautiful golf course and nice houses just east of the plant. Side note: as I understand it, plants moved to AZ/NM because they wanted to eliminate process variance. Weather and water are a major source of variance. So they want places that reduce variance while simultaneously being favorable business environments. Reference: https://ktar.com/story/76977/intel-plant-replenishes-water-supply-in-chandler/ https://ktar.com/story/76977/intel-plant-replenishes-water-s...

baybal2 6y ago

> Why are fabs being built in az? If you are asking about Intel ones, and ones owned by the defence hardware industry, it is the same reason why China is building their fabs as far inland as Xian, and other obscure and scattered across places: they are harder to bomb there.

robotnikman 6y ago

Other Fabs are already located in the area, and in general the state has been good towards businesses. Also ASU is nearby so they have a talent pool of new engineers to pull from. Anecdote, since I've moved to AZ myself 5 years ago I've noticed massive growth in tech businesses in Phoenix and the surrounding areas. Cost of living for people here is also cheaper compared to to other cities I've lived in, and many people I've met who moved from California have told me how its cheaper here. Commuting is not too bad depending on where you live, and there are options which promote commuting or carpooling such as HOV lanes, Bike Lanes, and the light-rail system (the light rail is hit or miss depending on who you ask).

blhack 6y ago
Greetz from Tempe.
- robotnikman 6y ago
  And hello from Chandler :)
mech422 6y ago
Mesa Checking In... /wave
- vyrotek 6y ago
  Hi neighbor