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Let's try a thought exercise. If we pay engineers more, we'll get safer buildings. If we pay police officers more, we'll get safer streets. If we pay doctors mo

by maratd 16y ago

Let's try a thought exercise. If we pay engineers more, we'll get safer buildings. If we pay police officers more, we'll get safer streets. If we pay doctors more, we'll get better care. You see how this works? More pay attracts higher quality individuals, but it's a zero sum game. Those people are coming from some other industry. So if you'll pay teachers more, you'll have a lower quality of service elsewhere. That low-quality teacher just became a doctor and the doctor became a teacher. Not good. I want the best and brightest doing the most critical work, not babysitting children.

akashs 16y ago
Presumably better teachers would be able to actually, well, teach not just babysit. And if they can teach better that will produce better quality talent in the future, right? And then society can be better off. It's tough for those children to become doctors without a good education. And in the long run you'll end up with an entire society of incompetent doctors without good teachers.
dangoldin 16y ago
What about the future generations of doctors who had poor teachers and won't make good doctors? I don't think it's a zero sum game - the world changes and different skills are required at different points. New industries are constantly born that require a whole new set of people. The population of the world is always in flux as well - does that mean every additional person has to split the limited resources? I think a great teacher is a very leveraged way of taking students and giving them passions, goals, and skills. Students who've been lucky to have had these great teachers are the ones who will be passionate and become great in their chosen fields.
- maxharris 16y ago
  What about the future generations of doctors who had poor teachers and won't make good doctors? Teachers are not the only source of drive or inspiration to learn. Michael Faraday had almost no formal education (and he came from a poor family), yet he rose to become one of the most influential scientists in history. [He was apprenticed to a bookbinder, which allowed him to read a lot. His interest in science was inspired by a book (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Michael_Faraday#cite_note-12 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Michael_Farad...), not a teacher!]
  - dangoldin 16y ago
    Of course not but I think Faraday was an exception and it would be rare for someone in this day and age to be an innovative scientist without having a strong academic background. It's hard to break into academia without going to college and it's hard to go to college without going to school. Of course it's possible but it's just not easy and without the proper motivation many people would give up. Even before Faraday there were tons of self schooled mathematicians who would just write letters to each other with their problems and solutions but I just don't know how common that would be these days.
    - maxharris 16y ago
      it's hard to go to college without going to school I basically went to college without going to school first. I had a D average in high school, and something similar in grade school (I was far more interested in making trouble than anything else!) I didn't need preparation to go to college (and I went to a midwest public ivy); all I really needed was a clear idea of why I should do so. That I got from reading Issac Asimov and Ayn Rand, not from any teacher forcing me to sit still in their classroom.
kbyers 16y ago
Paying teachers more does not necessarily get higher quality teachers. If teachers were judged on merit and poor teachers were fired, then paying teachers more might be reasonable. But since teachers unions insist on tenure, have pay based on seniority, and make it exceptionally difficult to fire poor teachers, paying teachers more will not generally result in better quality education. As someone else pointed out above, there are much more fundamental issues than pay--notably being able to fire poor teachers, elimination of tenure, pay based on merit/not seniority.
tassl 16y ago
You don't need to have the best engineers/doctors teaching. Being an expert on something doesn't make a person a good teacher, which is a more important factor than the knowledge of that person. But a person can be a good teacher without being the best in his area.
dantheman 16y ago
Private schools, which generally have much better results than public schools, pay their teachers less than public schools -- so it seems pay isn't the deciding factor.
- cafard 16y ago
  Private schools have three great advantages. First, by definition, they have the backing of the parents. Second, they can expel students who are not doing the work or who are sufficiently disruptive. Third they can go by common sense rather than by the rule book in cases where it is called for. The better of them have a sound curriculum and are resistant to the fads that come out of the teachers' colleges. In fact some teachers may be willing to settle for the worse pay at a private school in the knowledge that they have the administration's and the parents' backing, and so a more gratifying task. But I am here to tell you that the private schools hire some turkeys--incompetent, idle, with a bad attitude, slipping unnoticed over into dementia, I've seen cases in my own and relatives' experiences. Yes, you can replace them more easily, but you may have shot a school year or a semester before you do.

by maratd 16y ago

akashs 16y ago

Presumably better teachers would be able to actually, well, teach not just babysit. And if they can teach better that will produce better quality talent in the future, right? And then society can be better off. It's tough for those children to become doctors without a good education. And in the long run you'll end up with an entire society of incompetent doctors without good teachers.

dangoldin 16y ago

What about the future generations of doctors who had poor teachers and won't make good doctors? I don't think it's a zero sum game - the world changes and different skills are required at different points. New industries are constantly born that require a whole new set of people. The population of the world is always in flux as well - does that mean every additional person has to split the limited resources? I think a great teacher is a very leveraged way of taking students and giving them passions, goals, and skills. Students who've been lucky to have had these great teachers are the ones who will be passionate and become great in their chosen fields.

maxharris 16y ago
What about the future generations of doctors who had poor teachers and won't make good doctors? Teachers are not the only source of drive or inspiration to learn. Michael Faraday had almost no formal education (and he came from a poor family), yet he rose to become one of the most influential scientists in history. [He was apprenticed to a bookbinder, which allowed him to read a lot. His interest in science was inspired by a book (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Michael_Faraday#cite_note-12 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Michael_Farad...), not a teacher!]
- dangoldin 16y ago
  Of course not but I think Faraday was an exception and it would be rare for someone in this day and age to be an innovative scientist without having a strong academic background. It's hard to break into academia without going to college and it's hard to go to college without going to school. Of course it's possible but it's just not easy and without the proper motivation many people would give up. Even before Faraday there were tons of self schooled mathematicians who would just write letters to each other with their problems and solutions but I just don't know how common that would be these days.
  - maxharris 16y ago
    it's hard to go to college without going to school I basically went to college without going to school first. I had a D average in high school, and something similar in grade school (I was far more interested in making trouble than anything else!) I didn't need preparation to go to college (and I went to a midwest public ivy); all I really needed was a clear idea of why I should do so. That I got from reading Issac Asimov and Ayn Rand, not from any teacher forcing me to sit still in their classroom.

kbyers 16y ago

Paying teachers more does not necessarily get higher quality teachers. If teachers were judged on merit and poor teachers were fired, then paying teachers more might be reasonable. But since teachers unions insist on tenure, have pay based on seniority, and make it exceptionally difficult to fire poor teachers, paying teachers more will not generally result in better quality education. As someone else pointed out above, there are much more fundamental issues than pay--notably being able to fire poor teachers, elimination of tenure, pay based on merit/not seniority.

tassl 16y ago

You don't need to have the best engineers/doctors teaching. Being an expert on something doesn't make a person a good teacher, which is a more important factor than the knowledge of that person. But a person can be a good teacher without being the best in his area.

dantheman 16y ago

Private schools, which generally have much better results than public schools, pay their teachers less than public schools -- so it seems pay isn't the deciding factor.

cafard 16y ago
Private schools have three great advantages. First, by definition, they have the backing of the parents. Second, they can expel students who are not doing the work or who are sufficiently disruptive. Third they can go by common sense rather than by the rule book in cases where it is called for. The better of them have a sound curriculum and are resistant to the fads that come out of the teachers' colleges. In fact some teachers may be willing to settle for the worse pay at a private school in the knowledge that they have the administration's and the parents' backing, and so a more gratifying task. But I am here to tell you that the private schools hire some turkeys--incompetent, idle, with a bad attitude, slipping unnoticed over into dementia, I've seen cases in my own and relatives' experiences. Yes, you can replace them more easily, but you may have shot a school year or a semester before you do.