10 ms·

As a guy, I'm cool with this kind of stuff. But what message does this send to girls who are not considered attractive enough or just don't want to do this kind

As a guy, I'm cool with this kind of stuff. But what message does this send to girls who are not considered attractive enough or just don't want to do this kind of work? The message is that all the study, work, and effort to work in a meaningful career is a freaking joke, when all it takes is to be born a certain way and make huge amounts of money selling your body. On the other hand, we have a generation of young males who will be trapped in this vampiric system where their money and time are spent on girls who wouldn't even look at them if they crossed paths on the street, instead of going out there and building real relationships. I'm just generalizing of course, don't think I'm saying this applies to everyone. But man, we are so fucked.

krapp 6y ago
Society already sends girls the message that their greatest asset is their looks, and their value in society is their ability to attract a man. That beautiful women don't have to work hard to make money or succeed in society isn't exactly a revelation to anyone. Society already also sends boys the message that their greatest value lies in their sexual exploits, and that as long as they have money and power and are aggressive enough, sex with beautiful women is their just and deserved reward. Both of these signals are primarily sent through popular media, and their purpose is to reinforce outdated notions of both masculinity and femininity, and superficial and exploitative ideals of relationships and sex which lend themselves more readily to consumerism and commercial exploitation. None of this is in any way new.
- noirbot 6y ago
  But just because it's not new doesn't mean we should accept it or cheer it on as it continues in new forms. I'd argue a lot of the movement in culture over the last 20 years especially has been trying to move away from those trends and messages, even if it's not all fully successful.
- nelaboras 6y ago
  I doubt that good looking women have such an easy life as you seem to think. Being attractive goes along with sexual harassment from the early teens onwards - stares, commdnts, unwanted touching, .. This doesn't stop until they turn 40+. I've seen 12(ish) year olds or moms with small children getting lewd comments. In later years attractive women struggle exactly because of the trope you describe - all their achievements are doubted because others think those are just due to their looks and genetic lottery. And they can never be sure whether a male offer of support is genuine kindness or collegiality or an attempt to get in their pants. Another example: I travel 2x/month for work. When I do I go for runs, roam late around the neighbourhoods of unknown areas to take photos, grab a beer and chat with locals, etc. I dont have to fear too much harm beyond a robbery. My female colleagues all have a very similar travel schedule but they don't see or experience nearly as much of the cities they travel to, simply because as a woman you have to fear much more for your bodily integrity than us men. Not saying anyone is really at fault here (except our fellow men that don't respect boundaries/common decency) or that being unattractive is better (especially for women that has its own downsides) but it definitely is not all rainbow and sunshine just because a woman has good looks. Be kind to all, whether beautiful or not.
  - IdiocyInAction 6y ago
    Of course, being attractive has downsides. So does being tall and also being intelligent. So does being rich. You'll get harrased, you car scratched, become a target for kidnapping and everyone will doubt your achievements as well. A rich person probably can't enter many neighborhoods as well, without a bodyguard. Being attractive, woman or not, has so many hidden benefits it's impossible to add them all up. You'll be perceived as more intelligent, you'll get more opportunities to be promoted and of course, mating, one of the most important aspects for humans, becomes immeasurably easier. It's probably one of the greatest inequalities there is, along with intelligence and wealth. There are many studies that indicate that subjective well-being correlates with attractiveness. And yet, people seem to be a lot more eager to defend the beautiful, rather than the wealthy. Also note that attractivness is massively important for men as well; note that 80% of all CEOs are above 6 ft tall.
KittenInABox 6y ago
I think this is neglecting that it does take effort to maintain the appearance of being attractive even if there is a genetic lottery component. Additionally it's work that is often ultimately temporary akin to being an NFL player or dancer in which you can only do the thing you've been working at for a relatively short period.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
But what message does this send to girls I think the larger problem is the degree to which men refuse to engage women in a substantive intellectual fashion. I appear to be the highest ranked woman on HN. I've been here over a decade. It continues to be the case that most men don't really want to talk much with me unless they are hitting on me. This has proven to be a huge barrier to effective networking and a huge barrier to turning my participation into an adequate income, something men seem to have no trouble doing here if they so desire. I am not against sex work. But I have a very big problem with the degree to which other earning opportunities are lacking for women because of this dynamic where simply being female means no one wants to take your work seriously. I don't think it helps to put a stop to sex work. All that does is make women prisoners of their men because then earning it on your back by "marrying well" becomes the only really viable means to have an adequate income for a woman when so many career doors that aren't sex work are so hard to force open if you are female and sex work is vilified as immoral and often is made illegal as well. I have been talking for many years on HN about my desire to establish an adequate earned income via the internet because of my medical situation. I was homeless for nearly six years of that and I have had people tell me I was "panhandling the internet" and things like that. I was told for years "Get a real job" when men here who are trying to make money online don't get told the same thing. I get treated like I'm just a whiner, not someone with a legitimate complaint or legitimate social observation, etc ad nauseum. If you really are concerned about the status of women, you should be much more concerned about the myriad social factors that make sex work one of the few ways women can reliably make a good income. Because stamping out sex work doesn't magically open other doors. If it did, I would be fabulously wealthy because I have been celibate for medical reasons for fifteen years. If this were not true, I likely would have moved to Nevada, where sex work is legal, and made a killing to pay off my debts and come up with enough money to pay cash for a house or at least a down payment on a house. Sex work is not a viable option for me and I'm no longer amenable to the idea for various reasons. But solving my financial problems shouldn't be this hard. I have six years of college and yadda. But I can't make the same connections men make and that's a huge barrier to trying to establish an adequate income. This is true whether we ban sex work or not. Focusing on "But what is the message to girls here..." is the wrong focus. It doesn't solve the real problem women have.
- 6y ago
commandlinefan 6y ago
> all it takes is to be born a certain way Couldn't the same be said about intelligence?
- yeetman21 6y ago
  shhhhh, you're not suppose to say that
- badrabbit 6y ago
  It's absolutley arrogant and dishonest to think your intelligence is inherited instead of developed,unless you are an exception. Unintelligent people have hard working kids that grow up to be extremely intelligent,intelligent people give birth to children that end up idiots with negative contribution to society and themselves.
  - yobin 6y ago
    False >Twin studies of adult individuals have found a heritability of IQ between 57% and 73% with the most recent studies showing heritability for IQ as high as 80% and 86%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ
    - badrabbit 6y ago
      Please read the caveat section on that page: "Some have gone further, and used height as an example in order to argue that "even highly heritable traits can be strongly manipulated by the environment, so heritability has little if anything to do with controllability."" Regardless of this, this is a measure if IQ, they control for a similar environment but they don't control for similar upbringing and individual's interests and pursuits. IQ isn't static, there maybe a static ceiling that differs between individuals but the choices made by parents,individuals and environment affect how much developmental effort is focused on specific IQ traits. As Einstein put it,you shouldn't measure a fish on it's ability to climb a tree.
    - commandlinefan 6y ago
heavyset_go 6y ago
> The message is that all the study, work, and effort to work in a meaningful career is a freaking joke, when all it takes is to be born a certain way and make huge amounts of money selling your body. It isn't much different than not being born into wealth, or not being able to marry into wealth because of looks. It exposes an inequity in our society, one that wouldn't be so harsh if people didn't have to sell their body to eat and keep a roof over their head. Many people are driven by things other than money. There are plenty of people who are good looking, but want nothing to do with making a living from it.
- yeetman21 6y ago
  they're not selling their bodies to eat, they're doing it to make a quick buck to buy luxury goods (phones, cars clothes ...)
downerending 6y ago
> what message does this send to girls who are not considered attractive enough Arguably this same message is also being sent to boys, who almost certainly aren't "attractive" enough to be paid in this medium. Aside from that, who is even paying these people? It's not like there's any dearth of free porn out there (or so I've heard). Unless it's someone rather famous or personally known to you, why bother?
- sio8ohPi 6y ago
  Why support someone on Patreon? Why tip your waiter?
  - downerending 6y ago
    If there 1000 other waiters who appear to be perfectly thrilled to work without tips, why would I? If someone needs charity, I'd consider it, but I don't care to be "paid" with naked pictures in that case.
    - sio8ohPi 6y ago
      But they will work without tips. Nobody is making you tip. Why not just pay for your meal and leave?
      - redis_mlc 6y ago
        For non-US HN readers: In the US, the IRS assumes you make a certain amount in tips if you work in a job that customarily allows tipping. So when a customer doesn't tip, the waiter still has to pay taxes on the money you didn't give them. But wait, it gets worse (this being the US): Some states allow paying waiters less than minimum wage if tipping is customary. As low as $2/hour. So a waiter could actually end up owing more money in taxes than what they made that day. All this, and no health or dental insurance, or pension. I could go on, but you get the idea. Actually, I will go on. Since most states are at-will, you can be fired for any or no reason at any time. But just as common, the restaurant manager will threaten you with reduced hours if you call in sick, or get a customer complaint (ie. "My spaghetti wasn't al dente. What's wrong with that waiter today.") Or if you don't do the manager "favors" (see the Chipotle scandal.) BTW, a couple days ago I was wondering how esperate people would make a living during the extended lockdown. Then I saw the HN submission for OnlyFans ... Welcome to the USA!
cmdshiftf4 6y ago
>But what message does this send to girls who are not considered attractive enough or just don't want to do this kind of work? Here's where the real damage gets done - women flock to onlyfans as they find it to be an easy way to sell their looks / body for money. They initially get interest and some (or a lot) of money. More beautiful girls join onlyfans, subscribers change and now you're left with yesterday's onlyfan star, having gained "worth" from her looks/body, now watching that "worth" dissipate. Not to mention those images are now online forever. >The message is that all the study, work, and effort to work in a meaningful career is a freaking joke, when all it takes is to be born a certain way and make huge amounts of money selling your body. This already existed. Ugly rich/famous/powerful men don't get beautiful wives due to their glowing personality. >But man, we are so fucked. We are, from virtually every angle. Still, at least it's interesting.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > Not to mention those images are now online _forever_. Online forever and owned by, or granted a license in perpetuity to, an entity that isn't you.
- mydongle 6y ago
  Imagine being a kid today and school bullies finding your mother's old OnlyFans pictures.
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
    Could be worse, at least she made a buck off it. Think of the children of the people flooding Reddit with porn content of themselves, in which they're easily identifiable, for free.
  - randyrand 6y ago
    Imagine going to summer camp on money your mom raised from sexwork!
  - scruple 6y ago
    Or, flip that script. Which _is_ happening. People are buying OnlyFans, tracking down their parents, and sending them the pictures.
mnm1 6y ago
What message do professional athletes send to boys who are not athletic enough or don't want to play sports? The answer is the same as the answer to your question. None. Life is unfair and little boys and girls that don't yet grasp this concept need better parents and teachers. That's all.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
- mydongle 6y ago
  There's nothing inherently exploitive/evil about being a hikkikomori. It's not like they are getting paid and living large off being one. Those are legitimately mentally ill people often times.
mc32 6y ago
Ha! Just wait till VR catches on and FB pours all its resources into sucking people into its ecosystem, nay econosphere. Then we will truly be effed beyond belief. Just wait till they leverage all their psychological tricks in the VR world. Goodbye reality.
senectus1 6y ago
there is also the law of escalation to consider, to get more hits, to stand out above others, these people will perform increasingly more debase or dangerous actions and poses. I'm not for wholesale censorship but somehow we need to find a way to stop the pressure of anonymous crowd escalation pressure.

krapp 6y ago

Society already sends girls the message that their greatest asset is their looks, and their value in society is their ability to attract a man. That beautiful women don't have to work hard to make money or succeed in society isn't exactly a revelation to anyone. Society already also sends boys the message that their greatest value lies in their sexual exploits, and that as long as they have money and power and are aggressive enough, sex with beautiful women is their just and deserved reward. Both of these signals are primarily sent through popular media, and their purpose is to reinforce outdated notions of both masculinity and femininity, and superficial and exploitative ideals of relationships and sex which lend themselves more readily to consumerism and commercial exploitation. None of this is in any way new.

noirbot 6y ago
But just because it's not new doesn't mean we should accept it or cheer it on as it continues in new forms. I'd argue a lot of the movement in culture over the last 20 years especially has been trying to move away from those trends and messages, even if it's not all fully successful.
nelaboras 6y ago
I doubt that good looking women have such an easy life as you seem to think. Being attractive goes along with sexual harassment from the early teens onwards - stares, commdnts, unwanted touching, .. This doesn't stop until they turn 40+. I've seen 12(ish) year olds or moms with small children getting lewd comments. In later years attractive women struggle exactly because of the trope you describe - all their achievements are doubted because others think those are just due to their looks and genetic lottery. And they can never be sure whether a male offer of support is genuine kindness or collegiality or an attempt to get in their pants. Another example: I travel 2x/month for work. When I do I go for runs, roam late around the neighbourhoods of unknown areas to take photos, grab a beer and chat with locals, etc. I dont have to fear too much harm beyond a robbery. My female colleagues all have a very similar travel schedule but they don't see or experience nearly as much of the cities they travel to, simply because as a woman you have to fear much more for your bodily integrity than us men. Not saying anyone is really at fault here (except our fellow men that don't respect boundaries/common decency) or that being unattractive is better (especially for women that has its own downsides) but it definitely is not all rainbow and sunshine just because a woman has good looks. Be kind to all, whether beautiful or not.
- IdiocyInAction 6y ago
  Of course, being attractive has downsides. So does being tall and also being intelligent. So does being rich. You'll get harrased, you car scratched, become a target for kidnapping and everyone will doubt your achievements as well. A rich person probably can't enter many neighborhoods as well, without a bodyguard. Being attractive, woman or not, has so many hidden benefits it's impossible to add them all up. You'll be perceived as more intelligent, you'll get more opportunities to be promoted and of course, mating, one of the most important aspects for humans, becomes immeasurably easier. It's probably one of the greatest inequalities there is, along with intelligence and wealth. There are many studies that indicate that subjective well-being correlates with attractiveness. And yet, people seem to be a lot more eager to defend the beautiful, rather than the wealthy. Also note that attractivness is massively important for men as well; note that 80% of all CEOs are above 6 ft tall.

KittenInABox 6y ago

I think this is neglecting that it does take effort to maintain the appearance of being attractive even if there is a genetic lottery component. Additionally it's work that is often ultimately temporary akin to being an NFL player or dancer in which you can only do the thing you've been working at for a relatively short period.

DoreenMichele 6y ago

But what message does this send to girls I think the larger problem is the degree to which men refuse to engage women in a substantive intellectual fashion. I appear to be the highest ranked woman on HN. I've been here over a decade. It continues to be the case that most men don't really want to talk much with me unless they are hitting on me. This has proven to be a huge barrier to effective networking and a huge barrier to turning my participation into an adequate income, something men seem to have no trouble doing here if they so desire. I am not against sex work. But I have a very big problem with the degree to which other earning opportunities are lacking for women because of this dynamic where simply being female means no one wants to take your work seriously. I don't think it helps to put a stop to sex work. All that does is make women prisoners of their men because then earning it on your back by "marrying well" becomes the only really viable means to have an adequate income for a woman when so many career doors that aren't sex work are so hard to force open if you are female and sex work is vilified as immoral and often is made illegal as well. I have been talking for many years on HN about my desire to establish an adequate earned income via the internet because of my medical situation. I was homeless for nearly six years of that and I have had people tell me I was "panhandling the internet" and things like that. I was told for years "Get a real job" when men here who are trying to make money online don't get told the same thing. I get treated like I'm just a whiner, not someone with a legitimate complaint or legitimate social observation, etc ad nauseum. If you really are concerned about the status of women, you should be much more concerned about the myriad social factors that make sex work one of the few ways women can reliably make a good income. Because stamping out sex work doesn't magically open other doors. If it did, I would be fabulously wealthy because I have been celibate for medical reasons for fifteen years. If this were not true, I likely would have moved to Nevada, where sex work is legal, and made a killing to pay off my debts and come up with enough money to pay cash for a house or at least a down payment on a house. Sex work is not a viable option for me and I'm no longer amenable to the idea for various reasons. But solving my financial problems shouldn't be this hard. I have six years of college and yadda. But I can't make the same connections men make and that's a huge barrier to trying to establish an adequate income. This is true whether we ban sex work or not. Focusing on "But what is the message to girls here..." is the wrong focus. It doesn't solve the real problem women have.

6y ago

commandlinefan 6y ago

> all it takes is to be born a certain way Couldn't the same be said about intelligence?

yeetman21 6y ago
shhhhh, you're not suppose to say that
badrabbit 6y ago
It's absolutley arrogant and dishonest to think your intelligence is inherited instead of developed,unless you are an exception. Unintelligent people have hard working kids that grow up to be extremely intelligent,intelligent people give birth to children that end up idiots with negative contribution to society and themselves.
- yobin 6y ago
  False >Twin studies of adult individuals have found a heritability of IQ between 57% and 73% with the most recent studies showing heritability for IQ as high as 80% and 86%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    Please read the caveat section on that page: "Some have gone further, and used height as an example in order to argue that "even highly heritable traits can be strongly manipulated by the environment, so heritability has little if anything to do with controllability."" Regardless of this, this is a measure if IQ, they control for a similar environment but they don't control for similar upbringing and individual's interests and pursuits. IQ isn't static, there maybe a static ceiling that differs between individuals but the choices made by parents,individuals and environment affect how much developmental effort is focused on specific IQ traits. As Einstein put it,you shouldn't measure a fish on it's ability to climb a tree.
  - commandlinefan 6y ago

heavyset_go 6y ago

> The message is that all the study, work, and effort to work in a meaningful career is a freaking joke, when all it takes is to be born a certain way and make huge amounts of money selling your body. It isn't much different than not being born into wealth, or not being able to marry into wealth because of looks. It exposes an inequity in our society, one that wouldn't be so harsh if people didn't have to sell their body to eat and keep a roof over their head. Many people are driven by things other than money. There are plenty of people who are good looking, but want nothing to do with making a living from it.

yeetman21 6y ago
they're not selling their bodies to eat, they're doing it to make a quick buck to buy luxury goods (phones, cars clothes ...)

downerending 6y ago

> what message does this send to girls who are not considered attractive enough Arguably this same message is also being sent to boys, who almost certainly aren't "attractive" enough to be paid in this medium. Aside from that, who is even paying these people? It's not like there's any dearth of free porn out there (or so I've heard). Unless it's someone rather famous or personally known to you, why bother?

sio8ohPi 6y ago
Why support someone on Patreon? Why tip your waiter?
- downerending 6y ago
  If there 1000 other waiters who appear to be perfectly thrilled to work without tips, why would I? If someone needs charity, I'd consider it, but I don't care to be "paid" with naked pictures in that case.
  - sio8ohPi 6y ago
    But they will work without tips. Nobody is making you tip. Why not just pay for your meal and leave?
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      For non-US HN readers: In the US, the IRS assumes you make a certain amount in tips if you work in a job that customarily allows tipping. So when a customer doesn't tip, the waiter still has to pay taxes on the money you didn't give them. But wait, it gets worse (this being the US): Some states allow paying waiters less than minimum wage if tipping is customary. As low as $2/hour. So a waiter could actually end up owing more money in taxes than what they made that day. All this, and no health or dental insurance, or pension. I could go on, but you get the idea. Actually, I will go on. Since most states are at-will, you can be fired for any or no reason at any time. But just as common, the restaurant manager will threaten you with reduced hours if you call in sick, or get a customer complaint (ie. "My spaghetti wasn't al dente. What's wrong with that waiter today.") Or if you don't do the manager "favors" (see the Chipotle scandal.) BTW, a couple days ago I was wondering how esperate people would make a living during the extended lockdown. Then I saw the HN submission for OnlyFans ... Welcome to the USA!

cmdshiftf4 6y ago

>But what message does this send to girls who are not considered attractive enough or just don't want to do this kind of work? Here's where the real damage gets done - women flock to onlyfans as they find it to be an easy way to sell their looks / body for money. They initially get interest and some (or a lot) of money. More beautiful girls join onlyfans, subscribers change and now you're left with yesterday's onlyfan star, having gained "worth" from her looks/body, now watching that "worth" dissipate. Not to mention those images are now online forever. >The message is that all the study, work, and effort to work in a meaningful career is a freaking joke, when all it takes is to be born a certain way and make huge amounts of money selling your body. This already existed. Ugly rich/famous/powerful men don't get beautiful wives due to their glowing personality. >But man, we are so fucked. We are, from virtually every angle. Still, at least it's interesting.

heavyset_go 6y ago
> Not to mention those images are now online _forever_. Online forever and owned by, or granted a license in perpetuity to, an entity that isn't you.
mydongle 6y ago
Imagine being a kid today and school bullies finding your mother's old OnlyFans pictures.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  Could be worse, at least she made a buck off it. Think of the children of the people flooding Reddit with porn content of themselves, in which they're easily identifiable, for free.
- randyrand 6y ago
  Imagine going to summer camp on money your mom raised from sexwork!
- scruple 6y ago
  Or, flip that script. Which _is_ happening. People are buying OnlyFans, tracking down their parents, and sending them the pictures.

mnm1 6y ago

What message do professional athletes send to boys who are not athletic enough or don't want to play sports? The answer is the same as the answer to your question. None. Life is unfair and little boys and girls that don't yet grasp this concept need better parents and teachers. That's all.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mydongle 6y ago
There's nothing inherently exploitive/evil about being a hikkikomori. It's not like they are getting paid and living large off being one. Those are legitimately mentally ill people often times.

mc32 6y ago

Ha! Just wait till VR catches on and FB pours all its resources into sucking people into its ecosystem, nay econosphere. Then we will truly be effed beyond belief. Just wait till they leverage all their psychological tricks in the VR world. Goodbye reality.

senectus1 6y ago

there is also the law of escalation to consider, to get more hits, to stand out above others, these people will perform increasingly more debase or dangerous actions and poses. I'm not for wholesale censorship but somehow we need to find a way to stop the pressure of anonymous crowd escalation pressure.