6 ms·

The article doesn't even discuss benchmarking Ruby against other languages, so I'm not really sure what you're on about. Couldn't resist taking a performance ja

The article doesn't even discuss benchmarking Ruby against other languages, so I'm not really sure what you're on about. Couldn't resist taking a performance jab at Rails? Also, I'll take "double the hardware specs" if it means I'm actually able to focus on what I'm building and not dicking around with devops or rebuilding all of stuff Rails metaprograms for me by hand. If there was a framework for being as productive as Rails at half the cost then it would be flourishing. There isn't and as a result Rails isn't going anywhere any time soon.

deleted 6y ago
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pdimitar 6y ago
> Also, I'll take "double the hardware specs" if it means I'm actually able to focus on what I'm building and not dicking around with devops or rebuilding all of stuff Rails metaprograms for me by hand. Try 7x to 11x. That's the amount of reduced RAM usage -- and the amount of increased accommodated users -- on identical hosting by the two apps I rewrote from Rails to Phoenix. > If there was a framework for being as productive as Rails at half the cost then it would be flourishing. Bold of you to assume technical merit is the only factor. Historically this has almost never been true. There are a number of web frameworks that perform much better than Rails and are quite easy to work with. Cargo culting is a powerful force. Corporate inertia -- even more.
- imhoguy 6y ago
  When my small SaaS customer calls and asks for an extra extension at current hard times, then all I need is to open up Rails production console (pry) and live type in an ad-hoc code with auto-completion aid: $ rails c Loading production environment (Rails 5.2.0) [1] pry(main)> s = Subscriber.find_by_email('xyz@abc.com') => #<Subscriber:0x000055dbb64c3bb8 id: 12913, email: "xyz@abc.com", state: "active", expires_on: Fri, 15 May 2020 14:10:19 UTC +00:00, ... [2] pry(main)> s.expires_on += 2.months => Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:10:19 UTC +00:00 [3] pry(main)> s.save! => true It is done now! Good luck! Bye! - end of call. Cargo culting? From whom? I don't give a sh*.
  - pdimitar 6y ago
    I can do the same with Elixir's Phoenix, with exactly 3 lines in a production console like in your example. What you describe is not exclusive to Rails.
    - imhoguy 6y ago
      Yeah, maybe I should rewrite one day, but customers wouldn't care much and I am content wit Ruby.
      - pdimitar 6y ago
        That's fair. Nobody is making you do it. Use what feels right to you. I simply felt compelled to point out that Rails is not at all as unique as many of its long-time users believe.
      - joelbluminator 6y ago
        Yep, you should definitely rewrite because of some anonymous peer pressure in hackernews. Will do wonders for your customers!
- mindfulmore 6y ago
  And yet Phoenix hasn't stolen a significant amount of market share from Rails. > There are a number of web frameworks that perform much better than Rails If you're measuring hardware loads and busting out your stopwatch to measure response times, then sure. Bottom line is, there are plenty of good reasons to choose Rails over Phoenix. If you want to label choosing a well-backed framework with an incredibly mature ecosystem "cargo culting" then by all means. Have fun writing Ecto queries by hand, wiring up document storage on your own, trying to find a standout auth library of choice like devise, finding a library that makes managing database views less of a pain, wiring up end-to-end system testing. I'll be over here running rails new, wiring up sidekiq to ActiveJob, and building shit with ease.
  - pdimitar 6y ago
    > And yet Phoenix hasn't stolen a significant amount of market share from Rails. I thought we all learned popularity does not correlate with quality. It correlates pretty closely with corporate inertia and perceived lower risk of developer churn though. Businesses love tech stack for which there are bigger pools of programmers. Says nothing of the quality of the stacks. > If you're measuring hardware loads and busting out your stopwatch to measure response times, then sure. Needlessly snarky. Response times matter in a lot of businesses. Count yourself lucky that it hasn't been an important metric in your work. > Have fun writing Ecto queries by hand I do have fun writing those. Most times the code in my functions ends up more readable than the equivalent Rails code I wrote years ago. There are some exceptions where you have to dig deeper. Haven't seen a framework -- Rails included -- that lets you handle all complex cases with zero deeper digging needed. At one point you do have to understand SQL and query optimizations, no ways around it. > wiring up document storage on your own What for? > trying to find a standout auth library of choice like devise It's called Pow and works very well. Additionally, Elixir's maintainers themselves are authoring such a library at the moment. > finding a library that makes managing database views less of a pain We can argue if this is a good thing until the Sun explodes. It really depends on the business. I have consulted for businesses where it was very important and true enough, using a library that's well-tuned for classic web apps (like Ecto and ActiveRecord) isn't the best idea there. > wiring up end-to-end system testing For 3.5 years with Elixir this is the first time I hear that this is a problem. Any data to back this up? > I'll be over here running rails new, wiring up sidekiq to ActiveJob, and building shit with ease. More power to you. Rails is excellent for an MVP or a prototype and this is well-known. It's what comes after is what has burned me out of it. Its maintenance burden is much higher than many others, including PHP's Laravel.
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pdimitar 6y ago

> Also, I'll take "double the hardware specs" if it means I'm actually able to focus on what I'm building and not dicking around with devops or rebuilding all of stuff Rails metaprograms for me by hand. Try 7x to 11x. That's the amount of reduced RAM usage -- and the amount of increased accommodated users -- on identical hosting by the two apps I rewrote from Rails to Phoenix. > If there was a framework for being as productive as Rails at half the cost then it would be flourishing. Bold of you to assume technical merit is the only factor. Historically this has almost never been true. There are a number of web frameworks that perform much better than Rails and are quite easy to work with. Cargo culting is a powerful force. Corporate inertia -- even more.

imhoguy 6y ago
When my small SaaS customer calls and asks for an extra extension at current hard times, then all I need is to open up Rails production console (pry) and live type in an ad-hoc code with auto-completion aid: $ rails c Loading production environment (Rails 5.2.0) [1] pry(main)> s = Subscriber.find_by_email('xyz@abc.com') => #<Subscriber:0x000055dbb64c3bb8 id: 12913, email: "xyz@abc.com", state: "active", expires_on: Fri, 15 May 2020 14:10:19 UTC +00:00, ... [2] pry(main)> s.expires_on += 2.months => Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:10:19 UTC +00:00 [3] pry(main)> s.save! => true It is done now! Good luck! Bye! - end of call. Cargo culting? From whom? I don't give a sh*.
- pdimitar 6y ago
  I can do the same with Elixir's Phoenix, with exactly 3 lines in a production console like in your example. What you describe is not exclusive to Rails.
  - imhoguy 6y ago
    Yeah, maybe I should rewrite one day, but customers wouldn't care much and I am content wit Ruby.
    - pdimitar 6y ago
      That's fair. Nobody is making you do it. Use what feels right to you. I simply felt compelled to point out that Rails is not at all as unique as many of its long-time users believe.
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      Yep, you should definitely rewrite because of some anonymous peer pressure in hackernews. Will do wonders for your customers!
mindfulmore 6y ago
And yet Phoenix hasn't stolen a significant amount of market share from Rails. > There are a number of web frameworks that perform much better than Rails If you're measuring hardware loads and busting out your stopwatch to measure response times, then sure. Bottom line is, there are plenty of good reasons to choose Rails over Phoenix. If you want to label choosing a well-backed framework with an incredibly mature ecosystem "cargo culting" then by all means. Have fun writing Ecto queries by hand, wiring up document storage on your own, trying to find a standout auth library of choice like devise, finding a library that makes managing database views less of a pain, wiring up end-to-end system testing. I'll be over here running rails new, wiring up sidekiq to ActiveJob, and building shit with ease.
- pdimitar 6y ago
  > And yet Phoenix hasn't stolen a significant amount of market share from Rails. I thought we all learned popularity does not correlate with quality. It correlates pretty closely with corporate inertia and perceived lower risk of developer churn though. Businesses love tech stack for which there are bigger pools of programmers. Says nothing of the quality of the stacks. > If you're measuring hardware loads and busting out your stopwatch to measure response times, then sure. Needlessly snarky. Response times matter in a lot of businesses. Count yourself lucky that it hasn't been an important metric in your work. > Have fun writing Ecto queries by hand I do have fun writing those. Most times the code in my functions ends up more readable than the equivalent Rails code I wrote years ago. There are some exceptions where you have to dig deeper. Haven't seen a framework -- Rails included -- that lets you handle all complex cases with zero deeper digging needed. At one point you do have to understand SQL and query optimizations, no ways around it. > wiring up document storage on your own What for? > trying to find a standout auth library of choice like devise It's called Pow and works very well. Additionally, Elixir's maintainers themselves are authoring such a library at the moment. > finding a library that makes managing database views less of a pain We can argue if this is a good thing until the Sun explodes. It really depends on the business. I have consulted for businesses where it was very important and true enough, using a library that's well-tuned for classic web apps (like Ecto and ActiveRecord) isn't the best idea there. > wiring up end-to-end system testing For 3.5 years with Elixir this is the first time I hear that this is a problem. Any data to back this up? > I'll be over here running rails new, wiring up sidekiq to ActiveJob, and building shit with ease. More power to you. Rails is excellent for an MVP or a prototype and this is well-known. It's what comes after is what has burned me out of it. Its maintenance burden is much higher than many others, including PHP's Laravel.

deleted 6y ago

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