3 ms·

> Those examples you called up fit within that justifiable envelope, in the first case, near unanumously I don't think this is true at all. Maybe if we define

> Those examples you called up fit within that justifiable envelope, in the first case, near unanumously I don't think this is true at all. Maybe if we define the West as America, but even then I think that's a stretch. I can say anecdotally in my circles that the trading of unwitting Japanese civilian lives en masse in exchange for American military lives is looked on with disgust.

Floegipoky 6y ago
I also think it's important to be aware that much of the available intelligence at that time and reasoning behind it was classified, allowing the perpetrators to establish a narrative that went unchallenged for decades. For instance most Americans are completely unaware that the Japanese were actively trying to negotiate a surrender before Hiroshima was bombed. Most Americans are unaware that a ground invasion of the Japanese mainland was not being seriously considered, this ignorance let the government establish the false narrative you allude to. And most Americans aren't aware that American leadership intercepted communications indicating that the Japanese intended to surrender unconditionally if the Soviets entered the war, which happened on the day that Nagasaki was bombed.
- linuxftw 6y ago
  We had to murder them is still what's being taught in schools today. In the USA, the ends always justify the means. CIA Black Sites? Indefinite detention? Extrajudicial assassination of citizens? Torture? It's okay, these people are terrorists and don't deserve any rights.
  - salawat 6y ago
    I'm sympathetic toward your reasoning; and Floegipoky also makes a good point as well. I've become increasingly uncomfortable with the power that classification confers to the executive branch to shape the national discourse; but I don't know as that will realistically change without an unprecedented shift in Congressional and Executive sentiment. As to the narrative still being taught in schools; I certainly don't have a great answer for that one either. We have to teach them something, and you certainly don't have the most room within a child's worldview for being able to address the type of nuance the historically correct narrative creates without difficulty. At least that is the assumption I'm led to by assuming that there is a compelling reason the "System" has converged on the solution it has (locking the knowledge outside of normal curricula, and requiring extra independent digging to get at the truth of it, notionally done on the student's own initiative once they get older). You run into the indoctrination outcome more often than not; but you should have an eventual consistency effect over the timescale of generations. That doesn't seem fundamentally unreasonable to me. Pain in the ass? Yes. Fraught with hazard to the stability of the national identity? Assuredly. However, if we respect that we the Citizenry represent the standard bearers of national truth, then we must be the ones to change the history books; just as those who came before us did. Keeping society moving along is a lot of work.
    - linuxftw 6y ago
      > I certainly don't have a great answer for that one either. Would you be okay sending your children to an education establishment that was pro-Nazi? Probably not. Start treating the system for what it is: evil. Quit letting meaningless current affairs dominate the political dialogue. Speak out against the war criminals.

Floegipoky 6y ago

I also think it's important to be aware that much of the available intelligence at that time and reasoning behind it was classified, allowing the perpetrators to establish a narrative that went unchallenged for decades. For instance most Americans are completely unaware that the Japanese were actively trying to negotiate a surrender before Hiroshima was bombed. Most Americans are unaware that a ground invasion of the Japanese mainland was not being seriously considered, this ignorance let the government establish the false narrative you allude to. And most Americans aren't aware that American leadership intercepted communications indicating that the Japanese intended to surrender unconditionally if the Soviets entered the war, which happened on the day that Nagasaki was bombed.

linuxftw 6y ago
We had to murder them is still what's being taught in schools today. In the USA, the ends always justify the means. CIA Black Sites? Indefinite detention? Extrajudicial assassination of citizens? Torture? It's okay, these people are terrorists and don't deserve any rights.
- salawat 6y ago
  I'm sympathetic toward your reasoning; and Floegipoky also makes a good point as well. I've become increasingly uncomfortable with the power that classification confers to the executive branch to shape the national discourse; but I don't know as that will realistically change without an unprecedented shift in Congressional and Executive sentiment. As to the narrative still being taught in schools; I certainly don't have a great answer for that one either. We have to teach them something, and you certainly don't have the most room within a child's worldview for being able to address the type of nuance the historically correct narrative creates without difficulty. At least that is the assumption I'm led to by assuming that there is a compelling reason the "System" has converged on the solution it has (locking the knowledge outside of normal curricula, and requiring extra independent digging to get at the truth of it, notionally done on the student's own initiative once they get older). You run into the indoctrination outcome more often than not; but you should have an eventual consistency effect over the timescale of generations. That doesn't seem fundamentally unreasonable to me. Pain in the ass? Yes. Fraught with hazard to the stability of the national identity? Assuredly. However, if we respect that we the Citizenry represent the standard bearers of national truth, then we must be the ones to change the history books; just as those who came before us did. Keeping society moving along is a lot of work.
  - linuxftw 6y ago
    > I certainly don't have a great answer for that one either. Would you be okay sending your children to an education establishment that was pro-Nazi? Probably not. Start treating the system for what it is: evil. Quit letting meaningless current affairs dominate the political dialogue. Speak out against the war criminals.