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Preview has issues with PDFs with form fields right now. It causes a bunch of people to need to install Acrobat for that use case. :(

by mfer 6y ago

jmondi 6y ago
Installed Acrobat a few weeks ago for this use case specifically. I feel like Preview used to be a lot better at editing fields, recently it has been a real pain.
- ggregoire 6y ago
  Are there not any alternatives to Adobe Acrobat Reader on macOS for editing fields and other use cases listed in the other comments?
  - leejoramo 6y ago
    Apple's Preview does a pretty good job with generic pdf forms. Unfortunately, Adobe has created multiple types of pdf forms using different technologies and very complex specs. Apple does not support all of these. (You can also find many cases of PDF forms using Adobe tools that do not round trip between platforms). PDF Export does a good job of filing in the gaps. https://pdfexpert.com https://pdfexpert.com
    - rspeed 6y ago
      Not just complex specs. Some of them are proprietary.
  - gav 6y ago
    There's some non-free options: Editing/Form Fill/etc: Nitro[1] Signing: Nitro[1], HelloSign[2], airSlate[3], Smallpdf[4] (limited functionality) [1] https://www.gonitro.com https://www.gonitro.com [2] https://www.hellosign.com https://www.hellosign.com [3] https://www.airslate.com https://www.airslate.com [4] https://smallpdf.com https://smallpdf.com
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  PDF has two types of forms: native and JS driven. I'd bet that the problems are with the JS. I'd also be willing to bet that Adobe makes Acrobat author forms in a way that intentionally breaks third party readers.
  - hunter2_ 6y ago
    <airquotes>P</airquotes>DF
behnamoh 6y ago
OTOH, Preview renders PDFs way better than Adobe Reader does. Tweaking the settings in AR didn't help either. I only wish Preview would do two things: - open files in "maximized" view. - when opening a file, Left/Right arrow keys don't let you navigate the pages. Instead, they move the current page a few pixels left/right! (they work like horizontal scrollers)
pfortuny 6y ago
What about Skim? It is the one I use.
- behnamoh 6y ago
  It's good, but creates additional files for your annotations and comments - which btw, cannot be read in other software.
  - pfortuny 6y ago
    Yea, that is right.
jiofih 6y ago
That’s interesting. The iPad version works extremely well for editing.
r00fus 6y ago
Luckily other PDF editors do well with form fields and don't bundle a JS VM into their runtime.
crazygringo 6y ago
People keep saying this, but the form-filling tools are basically identical to Reader's. I don't get it. What Preview doesn't support is JavaScript, as far as I can tell, so it can't work with "smart" PDF's, e.g. that will do calculations for you. Is that what you're referring to? Or I'd love to know any specific issue you've run into with form fields.
- dathinab 6y ago
  The problem is that if the PDF forms where create with an Adobe program even things which should work with generic PDF might not do so because the Adobe program used JS or whatever below the cover. EDIT: I looked into some of the PDFs again and it seems I had been wrong. Not sure what they use but it doesn't seem to be js. EDIT EDIT: But I found other forms which where affected see my response below.
  - crazygringo 6y ago
    Is that a real thing? I've encountered JavaScript-heavy PDF's before, but which were obviously so. (Automatically calculating values for one form field based on another, generating QR codes, etc.) I've never come across a seemingly "normal" form PDF but which secretly used JavaScript for normal things like form filling, so that normal form-filling tools didn't work. I don't understand why the normal PDF type-in-a-text-box tool wouldn't work. Have you actually come across this? Can you point to any examples?
    - dathinab 6y ago
      I have run into this with regard to basic, but "slightly" more advanced features then text fields on forms in my university. You can be sure that even Adobe won't add JS for forms with plain text fields. ;=) EDIT: I looked into some of the PDFs again and it seems I had been wrong. Not sure what they use but it doesn't seem to be js. Sorry about this.
    - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
      Yes, as another commenter pointed out, Canadian govt citizenship forms, e.g. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/proof-citizenship/apply.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
dathinab 6y ago
There is quite a bunch of "PDF" features around forms which basically only work with Adobe PDF and maybe one or two other ones. But good luck if non of them are available for you. Worse many "office" people which create PDF's with form fields use Adobe tools, so they never see that what they hand out to thousends of students isn't working with >90% of PDF viewers....
- rspeed 6y ago
  It's because of this. Adobe hates us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFA Further reading: https://eclecticlight.co/2019/06/18/pdf-without-adobe-23-the-nightmare-of-forms/ https://eclecticlight.co/2019/06/18/pdf-without-adobe-23-the...
lowwave 6y ago
For sure, however it seems like vast majority of use of PDF, (which is to view a printed document as it is) is addressed by Preview. For stuff like sign a PDF and form are not things normal people need to use.
- techslave 6y ago
  so the only people doing that are abby normal?
m463 6y ago
This sounds like a page in a playbook for a company that wants to maintain their monopoly. - it is plausibly open - there are enough edge cases that your tool is the only one that does it reliably. This is similar to doc format - apple tools or openoffice can open it, but screw it up for everyone if they try to write it. There is a wonderful rant about another adobe file format .PSD in this code here: https://github.com/gco/xee/blob/master/XeePhotoshopLoader.m https://github.com/gco/xee/blob/master/XeePhotoshopLoader.m
- dhimes 6y ago
  That's beautiful. However, if I weren't an only child in two weeks I would take exception to that "old" bit describing the Uncle.
steve_taylor 6y ago
Why would anyone in their right mind create a PDF form?
- jusssi 6y ago
  They are actually quite handy when the only allowed method of submission is via snail mail or fax. Much better than the alternative of printing an empty form and filling it all in by hand.
- BolexNOLA 6y ago
  Man I don’t know what industry you’re in but I get 3-4 PDF’s a week.

Preview has issues with PDFs with form fields right now. It causes a bunch of people to need to install Acrobat for that use case. :(

by mfer 6y ago

Preview has issues with PDFs with form fields right now. It causes a bunch of people to need to install Acrobat for that use case. :(

jmondi 6y ago

Installed Acrobat a few weeks ago for this use case specifically. I feel like Preview used to be a lot better at editing fields, recently it has been a real pain.

ggregoire 6y ago
Are there not any alternatives to Adobe Acrobat Reader on macOS for editing fields and other use cases listed in the other comments?
- leejoramo 6y ago
  Apple's Preview does a pretty good job with generic pdf forms. Unfortunately, Adobe has created multiple types of pdf forms using different technologies and very complex specs. Apple does not support all of these. (You can also find many cases of PDF forms using Adobe tools that do not round trip between platforms). PDF Export does a good job of filing in the gaps. https://pdfexpert.com https://pdfexpert.com
  - rspeed 6y ago
    Not just complex specs. Some of them are proprietary.
- gav 6y ago
  There's some non-free options: Editing/Form Fill/etc: Nitro[1] Signing: Nitro[1], HelloSign[2], airSlate[3], Smallpdf[4] (limited functionality) [1] https://www.gonitro.com https://www.gonitro.com [2] https://www.hellosign.com https://www.hellosign.com [3] https://www.airslate.com https://www.airslate.com [4] https://smallpdf.com https://smallpdf.com
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
PDF has two types of forms: native and JS driven. I'd bet that the problems are with the JS. I'd also be willing to bet that Adobe makes Acrobat author forms in a way that intentionally breaks third party readers.
- hunter2_ 6y ago
  <airquotes>P</airquotes>DF

behnamoh 6y ago

OTOH, Preview renders PDFs way better than Adobe Reader does. Tweaking the settings in AR didn't help either. I only wish Preview would do two things: - open files in "maximized" view. - when opening a file, Left/Right arrow keys don't let you navigate the pages. Instead, they move the current page a few pixels left/right! (they work like horizontal scrollers)

pfortuny 6y ago

What about Skim? It is the one I use.

behnamoh 6y ago
It's good, but creates additional files for your annotations and comments - which btw, cannot be read in other software.
- pfortuny 6y ago
  Yea, that is right.

jiofih 6y ago

That’s interesting. The iPad version works extremely well for editing.

r00fus 6y ago

Luckily other PDF editors do well with form fields and don't bundle a JS VM into their runtime.

crazygringo 6y ago

People keep saying this, but the form-filling tools are basically identical to Reader's. I don't get it. What Preview doesn't support is JavaScript, as far as I can tell, so it can't work with "smart" PDF's, e.g. that will do calculations for you. Is that what you're referring to? Or I'd love to know any specific issue you've run into with form fields.

dathinab 6y ago
The problem is that if the PDF forms where create with an Adobe program even things which should work with generic PDF might not do so because the Adobe program used JS or whatever below the cover. EDIT: I looked into some of the PDFs again and it seems I had been wrong. Not sure what they use but it doesn't seem to be js. EDIT EDIT: But I found other forms which where affected see my response below.
- crazygringo 6y ago
  Is that a real thing? I've encountered JavaScript-heavy PDF's before, but which were obviously so. (Automatically calculating values for one form field based on another, generating QR codes, etc.) I've never come across a seemingly "normal" form PDF but which secretly used JavaScript for normal things like form filling, so that normal form-filling tools didn't work. I don't understand why the normal PDF type-in-a-text-box tool wouldn't work. Have you actually come across this? Can you point to any examples?
  - dathinab 6y ago
    I have run into this with regard to basic, but "slightly" more advanced features then text fields on forms in my university. You can be sure that even Adobe won't add JS for forms with plain text fields. ;=) EDIT: I looked into some of the PDFs again and it seems I had been wrong. Not sure what they use but it doesn't seem to be js. Sorry about this.
  - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    Yes, as another commenter pointed out, Canadian govt citizenship forms, e.g. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/proof-citizenship/apply.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

dathinab 6y ago

There is quite a bunch of "PDF" features around forms which basically only work with Adobe PDF and maybe one or two other ones. But good luck if non of them are available for you. Worse many "office" people which create PDF's with form fields use Adobe tools, so they never see that what they hand out to thousends of students isn't working with >90% of PDF viewers....

rspeed 6y ago
It's because of this. Adobe hates us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFA Further reading: https://eclecticlight.co/2019/06/18/pdf-without-adobe-23-the-nightmare-of-forms/ https://eclecticlight.co/2019/06/18/pdf-without-adobe-23-the...

lowwave 6y ago

For sure, however it seems like vast majority of use of PDF, (which is to view a printed document as it is) is addressed by Preview. For stuff like sign a PDF and form are not things normal people need to use.

techslave 6y ago
so the only people doing that are abby normal?

m463 6y ago

This sounds like a page in a playbook for a company that wants to maintain their monopoly. - it is plausibly open - there are enough edge cases that your tool is the only one that does it reliably. This is similar to doc format - apple tools or openoffice can open it, but screw it up for everyone if they try to write it. There is a wonderful rant about another adobe file format .PSD in this code here: https://github.com/gco/xee/blob/master/XeePhotoshopLoader.m https://github.com/gco/xee/blob/master/XeePhotoshopLoader.m

dhimes 6y ago
That's beautiful. However, if I weren't an only child in two weeks I would take exception to that "old" bit describing the Uncle.

steve_taylor 6y ago

Why would anyone in their right mind create a PDF form?

jusssi 6y ago
They are actually quite handy when the only allowed method of submission is via snail mail or fax. Much better than the alternative of printing an empty form and filling it all in by hand.
BolexNOLA 6y ago
Man I don’t know what industry you’re in but I get 3-4 PDF’s a week.