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I feel like there should be a decent correlation between being willing to put in effort into interviewing to progress in your career and being willing to put in

I feel like there should be a decent correlation between being willing to put in effort into interviewing to progress in your career and being willing to put in effort into doing your job to progress in your career, so it makes sense for companies to select on the former trait. Also, if someone refuses to spend a few dozen hours practicing leetcode to get a 6 figure pay rise then either there is something seriously wrong with their work ethic or they like to pick stupid hills to die on. Red flag? I don't understand why people complain about leetcode so much when it's such a low bar to clear. A lot of people want $400k/year jobs at Goldman, but Goldman won't hire you unless you went to Harvard or Wharton. Shouldn't people be glad that they work in an industry where the only barrier standing between them and a $400k/year Facebook job is a few hours of interview practice?

arvinsim 6y ago
Your argument make sense if only high paying companies do leetcode interviews. I think a lot of small and mid size companies are cargo culting on it too.
decafninja 6y ago
I both agree and disagree with this. I am thankful that there is a "meritocratic" way of getting into these top companies. But I don't agree grinding leetcode is the way to measure such merit. I definitely don't agree that it's "just a few (or even a few dozen) hours" to prepare or that it's a low bar. That said, I've come to terms with leetcode and coding interviews in general. If I ran a company or if I was a hiring manager with clout, I'd never hire people in such a way. But that's the current state of the game, and short of becoming the 99% shareholder of Google overnight, there is nothing I nor most people can do to change a thing. So might as well play the game and try to win it, instead of just whining about it. The irony is, I enjoy solving leetcode problems now. It's actually become my hobby - since all my free time outside of family is consumed by studying for interviews. But I don't enjoy whiteboarding hyperoptimal leetcode solutions under 45-minute interview pressure.
- esoterica 6y ago
  > But I don't agree grinding leetcode is the way to measure such merit. I think it's a much better way of measuring merit than people give it credit for. It measures a mix of problem solving ability and work ethic (it's not purely about innate skill, you can get much better at it through practice so it's also a test of whether you're willing to work for career advancement), both of which are probably things you want to hire for. You can also easily ratchet the difficulty of these things up or down depending on how selective you want to be when hiring. People complain about how "unrealistic" leetcode problems are but there's no intrinsic reason why the interview has to exactly replicate the job, it just has to be correlated with traits that are useful for the job.
  - decafninja 6y ago
    But what about...actually doing good at your job? Yes, you can BS about your actual job and accomplishments, hence why coding interviews supposedly exist. I acknowledge that. But then - why do anything more than the bare minimum at your job to get by while devoting the rest of your time (including any downtime during your job's working hours) to study leetcode for interviews instead? At least until you get into an "endgame company" - FAANG or otherwise, where you feel comfortable staying a while. Disclaimer: I actually do this to a certain extent - and I am not proud of it. In fact I am downright ashamed of it and angry at myself. It completely goes against my ethos of being the best engineer and best professional I can be. Which is how I worked when I was younger and more naive. But excelling above and beyond at my real, actual, work, will not get me anywhere, at least where I am now. I want to get into such an "endgame company" so that I can do my best work again.
    - amznthrowaway5 6y ago
      > But then - why do anything more than the bare minimum at your job to get by while devoting the rest of your time (including any downtime during your job's working hours) to study leetcode for interviews instead? At least until you get into an "endgame company" - FAANG or otherwise, where you feel comfortable staying a while. That sounds pretty healthy to me. If other companies want you to do work instead of leetcode, they should pay competitively.
metalforever 6y ago
Here’s how it really goes, as someone that fails Leetcode tests and interviews software engineers . Sometimes you are just in a high-demanding position, taking classes on the side to make your engineering better IRL, or you have a family. Grinding Leetcode just has a bad return regarding improving skills . I usually just end up focusing on being better in different ways. The candidates I interview seem to have Leetcode figured out anyway and it’s starting to become a bad tell. I’m having much more luck sniffing out good people with systems design questions.
ryandrake 6y ago
I don't know--I think I'd rather do some very hard thing once in my life (like graduate from Wharton or pass a bar exam) and have that be the ticket to ride, rather than have to grind Leetcode perpetually to stay on the train. I can't imagine a lawyer having to grind LeetLaw for months every time he wanted to do a job change.
- decafninja 6y ago
  What if you couldn't get into that elite law or business school for whatever reason? Your door to the elite law firm could be closed, permanently. The lawyer probably doesn't have to refresh the fundamentals of law and grind legal cases constantly, but then again, the lawyer in the small unimpressive law firm likely has no chance, ever, to get into a top law firm. The line of business .NET developer at some unimpressive non-tech company can grind leetcode and get into top companies. I hate the means to which makes this possible (grind leetcode) but I would pick the option of having upward mobility any day.
vonmoltke 6y ago
> Also, if someone refuses to spend a few dozen hours practicing leetcode to get a 6 figure pay rise then either there is something seriously wrong with their work ethic or they like to pick stupid hills to die on. Red flag? I have only once in the course of my 18-year career received a six-figure (barely) pay raise. It was one of the few occasions where I did not need to cram dozens of hours of Leetcode. > the only barrier standing between them and a $400k/year Facebook job is a few hours of interview practice There is a hell of a lot more than a few hours of practice standing between a candidate and a $400k job at Facebook. A $200k job, sure. Also, you went from "a few dozen" to "a few" here.
ar_lan 6y ago
Yeah, I'll play the game if I have to (I feel fairly safe in my job because I'm good at it). > being willing to put in effort into interviewing to progress in your career and being willing to put in effort into doing your job to progress in your career, I don't think many of the skills I've picked up in my career apply to interviews. I think they would be great skills that carry over to other companies, but I'd have to exclusively practice leetcode to feel comfortable with interviews. That's a problem in my book, because I have a lot more to offer than "Yeah, I can do leetcode problems all day."
- decafninja 6y ago
  I've heard the term "professional (coding) interviewer" and "professional leetcoder" thrown around too. Also wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people are leetcoding on the side during their day job's working hours. Disclaimer (as per my other comment): I'm guilty of it too.

arvinsim 6y ago

Your argument make sense if only high paying companies do leetcode interviews. I think a lot of small and mid size companies are cargo culting on it too.

decafninja 6y ago

I both agree and disagree with this. I am thankful that there is a "meritocratic" way of getting into these top companies. But I don't agree grinding leetcode is the way to measure such merit. I definitely don't agree that it's "just a few (or even a few dozen) hours" to prepare or that it's a low bar. That said, I've come to terms with leetcode and coding interviews in general. If I ran a company or if I was a hiring manager with clout, I'd never hire people in such a way. But that's the current state of the game, and short of becoming the 99% shareholder of Google overnight, there is nothing I nor most people can do to change a thing. So might as well play the game and try to win it, instead of just whining about it. The irony is, I enjoy solving leetcode problems now. It's actually become my hobby - since all my free time outside of family is consumed by studying for interviews. But I don't enjoy whiteboarding hyperoptimal leetcode solutions under 45-minute interview pressure.

esoterica 6y ago
> But I don't agree grinding leetcode is the way to measure such merit. I think it's a much better way of measuring merit than people give it credit for. It measures a mix of problem solving ability and work ethic (it's not purely about innate skill, you can get much better at it through practice so it's also a test of whether you're willing to work for career advancement), both of which are probably things you want to hire for. You can also easily ratchet the difficulty of these things up or down depending on how selective you want to be when hiring. People complain about how "unrealistic" leetcode problems are but there's no intrinsic reason why the interview has to exactly replicate the job, it just has to be correlated with traits that are useful for the job.
- decafninja 6y ago
  But what about...actually doing good at your job? Yes, you can BS about your actual job and accomplishments, hence why coding interviews supposedly exist. I acknowledge that. But then - why do anything more than the bare minimum at your job to get by while devoting the rest of your time (including any downtime during your job's working hours) to study leetcode for interviews instead? At least until you get into an "endgame company" - FAANG or otherwise, where you feel comfortable staying a while. Disclaimer: I actually do this to a certain extent - and I am not proud of it. In fact I am downright ashamed of it and angry at myself. It completely goes against my ethos of being the best engineer and best professional I can be. Which is how I worked when I was younger and more naive. But excelling above and beyond at my real, actual, work, will not get me anywhere, at least where I am now. I want to get into such an "endgame company" so that I can do my best work again.
  - amznthrowaway5 6y ago
    > But then - why do anything more than the bare minimum at your job to get by while devoting the rest of your time (including any downtime during your job's working hours) to study leetcode for interviews instead? At least until you get into an "endgame company" - FAANG or otherwise, where you feel comfortable staying a while. That sounds pretty healthy to me. If other companies want you to do work instead of leetcode, they should pay competitively.

metalforever 6y ago

Here’s how it really goes, as someone that fails Leetcode tests and interviews software engineers . Sometimes you are just in a high-demanding position, taking classes on the side to make your engineering better IRL, or you have a family. Grinding Leetcode just has a bad return regarding improving skills . I usually just end up focusing on being better in different ways. The candidates I interview seem to have Leetcode figured out anyway and it’s starting to become a bad tell. I’m having much more luck sniffing out good people with systems design questions.

ryandrake 6y ago

I don't know--I think I'd rather do some very hard thing once in my life (like graduate from Wharton or pass a bar exam) and have that be the ticket to ride, rather than have to grind Leetcode perpetually to stay on the train. I can't imagine a lawyer having to grind LeetLaw for months every time he wanted to do a job change.

decafninja 6y ago
What if you couldn't get into that elite law or business school for whatever reason? Your door to the elite law firm could be closed, permanently. The lawyer probably doesn't have to refresh the fundamentals of law and grind legal cases constantly, but then again, the lawyer in the small unimpressive law firm likely has no chance, ever, to get into a top law firm. The line of business .NET developer at some unimpressive non-tech company can grind leetcode and get into top companies. I hate the means to which makes this possible (grind leetcode) but I would pick the option of having upward mobility any day.

vonmoltke 6y ago

> Also, if someone refuses to spend a few dozen hours practicing leetcode to get a 6 figure pay rise then either there is something seriously wrong with their work ethic or they like to pick stupid hills to die on. Red flag? I have only once in the course of my 18-year career received a six-figure (barely) pay raise. It was one of the few occasions where I did not need to cram dozens of hours of Leetcode. > the only barrier standing between them and a $400k/year Facebook job is a few hours of interview practice There is a hell of a lot more than a few hours of practice standing between a candidate and a $400k job at Facebook. A $200k job, sure. Also, you went from "a few dozen" to "a few" here.

ar_lan 6y ago

Yeah, I'll play the game if I have to (I feel fairly safe in my job because I'm good at it). > being willing to put in effort into interviewing to progress in your career and being willing to put in effort into doing your job to progress in your career, I don't think many of the skills I've picked up in my career apply to interviews. I think they would be great skills that carry over to other companies, but I'd have to exclusively practice leetcode to feel comfortable with interviews. That's a problem in my book, because I have a lot more to offer than "Yeah, I can do leetcode problems all day."

decafninja 6y ago
I've heard the term "professional (coding) interviewer" and "professional leetcoder" thrown around too. Also wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people are leetcoding on the side during their day job's working hours. Disclaimer (as per my other comment): I'm guilty of it too.