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> NVidia is not to blame if the competition is stuck using C, printf debugging for computing shaders, cannot make their minds about which bytecode to support fo

by adev_ 6y ago

> NVidia is not to blame if the competition is stuck using C, printf debugging for computing shaders, cannot make their minds about which bytecode to support for heterogenous GPGPU programming. I don't bite this argument. Nvidia made close to no effort to support OpenCL and promoted their own technology CUDA. Even in 2020, OpenCL support for Nvidia hardware is close to nonexistent. When the main actor of the market does not support a technology, why the hell would you use it or even develop its ecosystem (SYSCL) > The situation is so bad that OpenCL 1.2 got promoted to OpenCL 3.0 and SYSCL is now backend independent. OpenCL 3.0, presented by an Nvidia official(https://khr.io/ocl3slidedeck https://khr.io/ocl3slidedeck), head of the working group on it. A company that made close to 0 effort to support OpenCL 2.0 revert the spec to 1.2. Astonishing right ?

pjmlp 6y ago
OpenCL isn't also supported on Android, where Google pushes Renderscript instead, their own C99 dialect, yet I don't see any uprising against Google. If the 139 member companies (taking NVidia out) listed here aren't able to provide the same quality in hardware, programming language and eco-system improvements against those from NVidia, and vote for a NVidia employee as chairman, then they deserve what they get. https://www.khronos.org/members/list https://www.khronos.org/members/list It is so easy to find a villain instead of acknowledging failure.
- fulafel 6y ago
  OpenCL used to be supported on Android (But not required on by Google). Currently, Vulkan _is_ required by Google[1] and is probably the future path to GPU compute. [1] https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/05/07/vulkan-1-1-will-be-required-on-all-64-bit-devices-running-android-q-or-higher/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/05/07/vulkan-1-1-will-be-...
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    OpenCL is only supported via hacks to install shared libraries into one own's device. Vulkan even if optional until Android 10, it is supported by the SDK since version 7, which is something that OpenCL never had. No serious Android developer would make their life even harder than it already is with the official APIs, by making use of an API that requires device owners to manually install libraries via ADB.
    - fulafel 6y ago
      Hmm, is the OpenCL situation really that fringe on android? Eg this OpenCL info app[1] description says "Even though OpenCL™ isn't part of the Android platform, it's available on many recent devices. On Android it's usually used as a back-end for other frameworks like Renderscript. Some manufacturers are providing SDKs for developers to use OpenCL™ on Android. " I addition to the mentioned PowerVR and Intel platforms there seems to be Android OpenCL also for Mali and Adreno GPUs. [1] https://apkpure.com/opencl%E2%84%A2-info/com.xh.openclinfo https://apkpure.com/opencl%E2%84%A2-info/com.xh.openclinfo
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Yes it is, it is not exposed via the SDK, regardless how Renderscript ends up being compiled to machine code. You won't find any reference to OpenCL here, https://source.android.com/ https://source.android.com/ https://developer.android.com/ https://developer.android.com/ So while those SDKs do exist, they aren't for application developers, rather for OEMs themselves. You as application developer have zero control about what GPUs the customers might be using, there is no way to control it on Android manifests, only to specify what APIs are expected, which again, don't have OpenCL as part of the list. https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/manifest-intro#reference https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/manifest... So if you as application developer want to use said SDKs, it is only for your own device, most likely rooted, don't expect to sell applications on the store using OpenCL.
        fulafel 6y ago
        Yep, you can't of course rely on OpenCL support, you have to provide a fallback. But are there any issues with including the SDK supplied OpenCL ICDs with the APK, for use with validated GPUs?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Yes, that is not how Android works. You are not allowed to ship drivers like that, and since version 7, there is kernel validation about stable NDK APIs. So yeah just because there is an OpenCL SDK for Mali, doesn't mean that a random Android device with Mali will have the drivers or kernel support in place, because that isn't something that Android requires. Google has collaborated with Adobe in porting their OpenCL shaders to Vulkan. If they actually cared, they would have made OpenCL available instead.
nl 6y ago
> I don't bite [buy] this argument. I don't think NVidia's half-hearted support for OpenCL has anything to do with the argument at all. It's a really good point that other tool vendors haven't stepped up and provided modern development tools for OpenCL (or any of AMD's various attempts), while NVidia has great dev tools.

by adev_ 6y ago

pjmlp 6y ago

OpenCL isn't also supported on Android, where Google pushes Renderscript instead, their own C99 dialect, yet I don't see any uprising against Google. If the 139 member companies (taking NVidia out) listed here aren't able to provide the same quality in hardware, programming language and eco-system improvements against those from NVidia, and vote for a NVidia employee as chairman, then they deserve what they get. https://www.khronos.org/members/list https://www.khronos.org/members/list It is so easy to find a villain instead of acknowledging failure.

fulafel 6y ago
OpenCL used to be supported on Android (But not required on by Google). Currently, Vulkan _is_ required by Google[1] and is probably the future path to GPU compute. [1] https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/05/07/vulkan-1-1-will-be-required-on-all-64-bit-devices-running-android-q-or-higher/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/05/07/vulkan-1-1-will-be-...
- pjmlp 6y ago
  OpenCL is only supported via hacks to install shared libraries into one own's device. Vulkan even if optional until Android 10, it is supported by the SDK since version 7, which is something that OpenCL never had. No serious Android developer would make their life even harder than it already is with the official APIs, by making use of an API that requires device owners to manually install libraries via ADB.
  - fulafel 6y ago
    Hmm, is the OpenCL situation really that fringe on android? Eg this OpenCL info app[1] description says "Even though OpenCL™ isn't part of the Android platform, it's available on many recent devices. On Android it's usually used as a back-end for other frameworks like Renderscript. Some manufacturers are providing SDKs for developers to use OpenCL™ on Android. " I addition to the mentioned PowerVR and Intel platforms there seems to be Android OpenCL also for Mali and Adreno GPUs. [1] https://apkpure.com/opencl%E2%84%A2-info/com.xh.openclinfo https://apkpure.com/opencl%E2%84%A2-info/com.xh.openclinfo
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Yes it is, it is not exposed via the SDK, regardless how Renderscript ends up being compiled to machine code. You won't find any reference to OpenCL here, https://source.android.com/ https://source.android.com/ https://developer.android.com/ https://developer.android.com/ So while those SDKs do exist, they aren't for application developers, rather for OEMs themselves. You as application developer have zero control about what GPUs the customers might be using, there is no way to control it on Android manifests, only to specify what APIs are expected, which again, don't have OpenCL as part of the list. https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/manifest-intro#reference https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/manifest... So if you as application developer want to use said SDKs, it is only for your own device, most likely rooted, don't expect to sell applications on the store using OpenCL.
      - fulafel 6y ago
        Yep, you can't of course rely on OpenCL support, you have to provide a fallback. But are there any issues with including the SDK supplied OpenCL ICDs with the APK, for use with validated GPUs?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Yes, that is not how Android works. You are not allowed to ship drivers like that, and since version 7, there is kernel validation about stable NDK APIs. So yeah just because there is an OpenCL SDK for Mali, doesn't mean that a random Android device with Mali will have the drivers or kernel support in place, because that isn't something that Android requires. Google has collaborated with Adobe in porting their OpenCL shaders to Vulkan. If they actually cared, they would have made OpenCL available instead.

nl 6y ago

> I don't bite [buy] this argument. I don't think NVidia's half-hearted support for OpenCL has anything to do with the argument at all. It's a really good point that other tool vendors haven't stepped up and provided modern development tools for OpenCL (or any of AMD's various attempts), while NVidia has great dev tools.