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> : in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet take

> : in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in Americ You seem to forget that in France & Germany, people go to the Netherlands or Spain for abortions after 12 weeks. It’s not a « compromise », it’s just a 1970s law that hasn’t been changed because conservative groups are annoying.

rayiner 6y ago
For the American audience: the limits are 12 weeks in France, 14 weeks in Spain, and 24 weeks in the Netherlands. For the European audience: the shortest abortion period that is currently in effect in the US is Mississippi’s at 20 weeks: https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/922-3.jpg https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/922-3.jpg. Shorter ones have been proposed but have been stayed pending litigation. Most of the deep south is close to the Netherlands line at 22 weeks. Most of the blue states limit up to viability, which can be up to 28 weeks. 7 states have no limit whatsoever. (Note that I’m not taking a position in what’s right; I’m just describing how various countries have addressed a divisive issue.) As to “conservative groups” being annoying—that makes it sound like something the majority agrees with but they just haven’t gotten around to updating the law. In fact, the dominant party in both France and Germany has opposed lengthening the current periods. The woman Angela Merkel hand-picked to be her successor as leader of the CDU is against abortion entirely, like many in the CDU. Merkel has maintained the status quo precisely as a compromise between her party and the more liberal parties in Germany.
- vkou 6y ago
  In practice, regardless of what that law says, you can't get an abortion in the deep south. There are fewer licensed clinics than there are letters 'i' in Mississippi. Despite what you've listed, there are other laws on the books that make operating one nearly impossible - they can't be located within a mile of a school, they need to have admission powers at a hospital, etc, etc.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Well, that’s a major overstatement. The abortion rate in Mississippi (i.e. abortions performed in the state) was 1,000 per million people. In Germany, there were 1,200 per million. Spain is about twice as high at 2,000 per million. (It’s also not clear that difference can be explained by differences in access. People might be less likely to seek an abortion in a state where 60% of people in Mississippi self-identify as “pro life.”) There are definitely restrictions; I’m just pushing back on your assumption that those restrictions are so effective in practice that “you can’t get an abortion in Mississippi.” Apart from that, those restrictions are part of my point. Germans have achieved a compromise, involving fairly high paper requirements for getting an abortion—including limiting most abortions to the first trimester and requiring counseling and a waiting period. German state-sponsored health insurance also generally does not cover abortions absent medical necessity. But the other side of the compromise is that, once those requirements are met, the procedure is relatively accessible. In the US, the German compromise would be unthinkable to both sides. Here, the battleground for the right is laws limiting abortions to six weeks and abusing zoning laws to shut down clinics. The battleground for the left is things like public funding (not universal in Europe), making third trimester abortions a matter of discretionary medical judgment (highly unusual in Europe), and eliminating medical providers’ rights to refuse to perform abortions for conscience or religious reasons (a right that is nearly universal in Europe).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    This isn’t true - I used to live around the corner from a clinic in New Orleans (not the planned parenthood) that got picketed all the time

rayiner 6y ago

For the American audience: the limits are 12 weeks in France, 14 weeks in Spain, and 24 weeks in the Netherlands. For the European audience: the shortest abortion period that is currently in effect in the US is Mississippi’s at 20 weeks: https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/922-3.jpg https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/922-3.jpg. Shorter ones have been proposed but have been stayed pending litigation. Most of the deep south is close to the Netherlands line at 22 weeks. Most of the blue states limit up to viability, which can be up to 28 weeks. 7 states have no limit whatsoever. (Note that I’m not taking a position in what’s right; I’m just describing how various countries have addressed a divisive issue.) As to “conservative groups” being annoying—that makes it sound like something the majority agrees with but they just haven’t gotten around to updating the law. In fact, the dominant party in both France and Germany has opposed lengthening the current periods. The woman Angela Merkel hand-picked to be her successor as leader of the CDU is against abortion entirely, like many in the CDU. Merkel has maintained the status quo precisely as a compromise between her party and the more liberal parties in Germany.

vkou 6y ago
In practice, regardless of what that law says, you can't get an abortion in the deep south. There are fewer licensed clinics than there are letters 'i' in Mississippi. Despite what you've listed, there are other laws on the books that make operating one nearly impossible - they can't be located within a mile of a school, they need to have admission powers at a hospital, etc, etc.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Well, that’s a major overstatement. The abortion rate in Mississippi (i.e. abortions performed in the state) was 1,000 per million people. In Germany, there were 1,200 per million. Spain is about twice as high at 2,000 per million. (It’s also not clear that difference can be explained by differences in access. People might be less likely to seek an abortion in a state where 60% of people in Mississippi self-identify as “pro life.”) There are definitely restrictions; I’m just pushing back on your assumption that those restrictions are so effective in practice that “you can’t get an abortion in Mississippi.” Apart from that, those restrictions are part of my point. Germans have achieved a compromise, involving fairly high paper requirements for getting an abortion—including limiting most abortions to the first trimester and requiring counseling and a waiting period. German state-sponsored health insurance also generally does not cover abortions absent medical necessity. But the other side of the compromise is that, once those requirements are met, the procedure is relatively accessible. In the US, the German compromise would be unthinkable to both sides. Here, the battleground for the right is laws limiting abortions to six weeks and abusing zoning laws to shut down clinics. The battleground for the left is things like public funding (not universal in Europe), making third trimester abortions a matter of discretionary medical judgment (highly unusual in Europe), and eliminating medical providers’ rights to refuse to perform abortions for conscience or religious reasons (a right that is nearly universal in Europe).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  This isn’t true - I used to live around the corner from a clinic in New Orleans (not the planned parenthood) that got picketed all the time