6 ms·

This goes back to the culture point OP made. Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living.

mehrdadn 6y ago
I don't believe this. In fact I can't even make sense of it. You're saying when families' and people's lives are at stake in the US, they'd legitimately rather risk dying than just getting handed checks that their own leaders approved of practically unanimously during a crisis? Isn't this completely at odds with the sheer demand there has been for the economic aid so far? And also at odds with how politicians have been trying to claim credit for the aid? You're saying the protesters are somehow so deeply tied to these values and so morally offended by being paid "unearned" money during a globally acknowledged crisis that they're willing to go out to protest this repulsive act while packing together within 6 feet out of spite(?) and then... take the money ASAP and continue to support the politicians who are giving them the money? What?
- Press2forEN 6y ago
  I don't think you're accurately representing what the protesters are angry about. The choice of staying home and dying is a false dichotomy, and many see the lockdown as a unjust assumption of power by governments that don't have the right to take such actions. Earning a living vs being provided one isn't even really the issue.
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    >> Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living. > I don't think you're accurately representing what the protesters are angry about. Earning a living vs being provided one isn't even really the issue. I'm sorry, I was just replying to what you wrote, and you were telling me that the issue is earning a living. Now you changed your argument entirely. So you're saying this isn't even about making a living then, given that paying people would clearly solve that problem? That means you're concluding it's really a political protest then? Isn't that a pretty strong, rational reason for everyone else to actively ignore the protesters in that case? Rather than "show a little more compassion" for something they're not protesting about?
- JPKab 6y ago
  Risk dying. Is the quantity of risk identical to all populations? The answer is no. But people like you never mention this. I'm curious: What is, in your opinion, the trigger for reopening? What metric? Is that metric at a city, county, or state level? I'd like to hear specifics, because I have yet to hear them from the cowardly ass covering politicians who say there is no cost that can be put on a human life. The same people who choose not to put a guardrail on a dangerous rural road because the cost isn't worth the number of lives lost per year on said road.
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    > But people like you never mention this. Well ask me something about it and I'll answer it (or tell you if I don't know). There are a million things I haven't mentioned. Just like you. We're not writing dissertations on COVID-19 here. I can only address so many things that I find relevant to the discussion. What are you even expecting me to say about this? Of course the elderly and the vulnerable are worse off. How is that against anything I was saying? I was suggesting we make more economic impact payments rather than pack together into a crowd and protest. Does it look like there was some obvious connection between that and people's age that I somehow deliberately omitted and that would've hurt my argument? If so please enlighten me and I'll address it. Meanwhile the one thing I don't hear from "people like you" (since you like painting people with one broad stroke like that) is a single acknowledgment that the experts might know more than you (and me), and this isn't about your opinion vs. mine. Which is funny, though not in a humorous way. To you nobody knows what they're doing. To us, there are people who know what they're doing somewhat better than us laypeople, so we're trying to at least give them and their opinions that much credit and weight. > What is, in your opinion, the trigger for reopening? What metric? Is that metric at a city, county, or state level? I'd like to hear specifics, because I have yet to hear them from the cowardly ass covering politicians who say there is no cost that can be put on a human life Well that might be because you haven't been listening to them. I know Cuomo has answered your question quite precisely... same guy whom you're mocking for saying every life is priceless. He said (and this is not his opinion or mine, this is the opinion of the experts advising him) that when the infection rates become constant (i.e. when the derivative reaches 0), you can start to reopen. That is the trigger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyOnfK_UMV4&t=4m38s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyOnfK_UMV4&t=4m38s Also, FYI, experts have put costs on human life and they have come to the conclusion (sorry if this isn't what you're hoping to hear) that it's very much worth it to shut down the economy. If you're interested, listen here. I imagine you'll disagree anyway (the experts are blind etc.) but at least you can't accuse them of not having tried to do the analyses that you appear to believe you have done. https://www.npr.org/transcripts/835571843 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/835571843
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  Most people who actually work for a living have probably worked while ill at least once in order to keep the paycheck coming for their family. They do not perceive the "risk of dying" as deadly as you do. And it's not only about the paycheck/stimulus check. Its also about going out to eat, going to the movies, enjoying life. A stimulus check doesn't compensate for this.
paulryanrogers 6y ago
Fair enough. But if "earning a living" includes unprecedented risk to their community then priorities may need to be reconsidered. During world wars great sacrifices were made for the greater good, even when it disrupted ones plans for "earning a living".
aisengard 6y ago
I'd posit it's the business owners who feel like they want to earn a living, not a small number of them by forcing their employees to come to work and create value for them. The vast majority of people in the US don't own a business, they work for a wage, or are living off retirement. I'd be interested to see the breakdown of people who don't support the lockdown vs the people who own a business that's been closed. I'd imagine there would be a strong corollary.
unethical_ban 6y ago
Many people in the US want to be alive rather than dead. We're not talking perma-welfare for all non-billionaires. I can't recall meeting many people who get substantially more conservative with age, but I do know many who shift more liberal. I believe there is a correlation with open-mindedness.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  Relevant: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/706889?mobileUi=0&journalCode=jop https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/706889?mob...
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  > I can't recall meeting many people who get substantially more conservative with age, but I do know many who shift more liberal. You haven't been to a Trump rally and visited with people waiting in line, have you? Lots of people at them have crossed the party lines.

I don't believe this. In fact I can't even make sense of it. You're saying when families' and people's lives are at stake in the US, they'd legitimately rather risk dying than just getting handed checks that their own leaders approved of practically unanimously during a crisis? Isn't this completely at odds with the sheer demand there has been for the economic aid so far? And also at odds with how politicians have been trying to claim credit for the aid? You're saying the protesters are somehow so deeply tied to these values and so morally offended by being paid "unearned" money during a globally acknowledged crisis that they're willing to go out to protest this repulsive act while packing together within 6 feet out of spite(?) and then... take the money ASAP and continue to support the politicians who are giving them the money? What?

Press2forEN 6y ago
I don't think you're accurately representing what the protesters are angry about. The choice of staying home and dying is a false dichotomy, and many see the lockdown as a unjust assumption of power by governments that don't have the right to take such actions. Earning a living vs being provided one isn't even really the issue.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  >> Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living. > I don't think you're accurately representing what the protesters are angry about. Earning a living vs being provided one isn't even really the issue. I'm sorry, I was just replying to what you wrote, and you were telling me that the issue is earning a living. Now you changed your argument entirely. So you're saying this isn't even about making a living then, given that paying people would clearly solve that problem? That means you're concluding it's really a political protest then? Isn't that a pretty strong, rational reason for everyone else to actively ignore the protesters in that case? Rather than "show a little more compassion" for something they're not protesting about?
JPKab 6y ago
Risk dying. Is the quantity of risk identical to all populations? The answer is no. But people like you never mention this. I'm curious: What is, in your opinion, the trigger for reopening? What metric? Is that metric at a city, county, or state level? I'd like to hear specifics, because I have yet to hear them from the cowardly ass covering politicians who say there is no cost that can be put on a human life. The same people who choose not to put a guardrail on a dangerous rural road because the cost isn't worth the number of lives lost per year on said road.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  > But people like you never mention this. Well ask me something about it and I'll answer it (or tell you if I don't know). There are a million things I haven't mentioned. Just like you. We're not writing dissertations on COVID-19 here. I can only address so many things that I find relevant to the discussion. What are you even expecting me to say about this? Of course the elderly and the vulnerable are worse off. How is that against anything I was saying? I was suggesting we make more economic impact payments rather than pack together into a crowd and protest. Does it look like there was some obvious connection between that and people's age that I somehow deliberately omitted and that would've hurt my argument? If so please enlighten me and I'll address it. Meanwhile the one thing I don't hear from "people like you" (since you like painting people with one broad stroke like that) is a single acknowledgment that the experts might know more than you (and me), and this isn't about your opinion vs. mine. Which is funny, though not in a humorous way. To you nobody knows what they're doing. To us, there are people who know what they're doing somewhat better than us laypeople, so we're trying to at least give them and their opinions that much credit and weight. > What is, in your opinion, the trigger for reopening? What metric? Is that metric at a city, county, or state level? I'd like to hear specifics, because I have yet to hear them from the cowardly ass covering politicians who say there is no cost that can be put on a human life Well that might be because you haven't been listening to them. I know Cuomo has answered your question quite precisely... same guy whom you're mocking for saying every life is priceless. He said (and this is not his opinion or mine, this is the opinion of the experts advising him) that when the infection rates become constant (i.e. when the derivative reaches 0), you can start to reopen. That is the trigger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyOnfK_UMV4&t=4m38s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyOnfK_UMV4&t=4m38s Also, FYI, experts have put costs on human life and they have come to the conclusion (sorry if this isn't what you're hoping to hear) that it's very much worth it to shut down the economy. If you're interested, listen here. I imagine you'll disagree anyway (the experts are blind etc.) but at least you can't accuse them of not having tried to do the analyses that you appear to believe you have done. https://www.npr.org/transcripts/835571843 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/835571843
Fjolsvith 6y ago
Most people who actually work for a living have probably worked while ill at least once in order to keep the paycheck coming for their family. They do not perceive the "risk of dying" as deadly as you do. And it's not only about the paycheck/stimulus check. Its also about going out to eat, going to the movies, enjoying life. A stimulus check doesn't compensate for this.

paulryanrogers 6y ago

Fair enough. But if "earning a living" includes unprecedented risk to their community then priorities may need to be reconsidered. During world wars great sacrifices were made for the greater good, even when it disrupted ones plans for "earning a living".

aisengard 6y ago

I'd posit it's the business owners who feel like they want to earn a living, not a small number of them by forcing their employees to come to work and create value for them. The vast majority of people in the US don't own a business, they work for a wage, or are living off retirement. I'd be interested to see the breakdown of people who don't support the lockdown vs the people who own a business that's been closed. I'd imagine there would be a strong corollary.

unethical_ban 6y ago

Many people in the US want to be alive rather than dead. We're not talking perma-welfare for all non-billionaires. I can't recall meeting many people who get substantially more conservative with age, but I do know many who shift more liberal. I believe there is a correlation with open-mindedness.

mehrdadn 6y ago
Relevant: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/706889?mobileUi=0&journalCode=jop https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/706889?mob...
Fjolsvith 6y ago
> I can't recall meeting many people who get substantially more conservative with age, but I do know many who shift more liberal. You haven't been to a Trump rally and visited with people waiting in line, have you? Lots of people at them have crossed the party lines.