18 ms·
OnlyFans, influencers, and the politics of selling nudes during a pandemic
- generalpass 6y agoThis was among my first thoughts when the first unemployment report came out. We are sending our daughters to OnlyFans. Still not sure where our sons end up.
- vbtemp 6y agoWell, not to strip naked on the internet. There was a great paper that came out recently demonstrating the value of men's sexuality is negative (vs that of women). Men don't possess anything intrinsically valuable or desirable. There is no fallback. I too wonder what this will mean for (young) men, who have already been pushed down a dark path.
- vzidex 6y agoWe know already where it heads - to young men being radicalized to hate everyone who isn't like them (i.e. not young, male, angry, usually white, usually straight).
- generalpass 6y agoI observe this to be a narrative that many are pushing, but I don't see it anywhere IRL or even the proverbial data. I suspect they just fall out of statistics and into depression.
- vzidex 6y agoAnecdotally, I see it in lots of places - I was a part of those types of communities when I was younger (I'm better now, and I _think_ I'm reasonably well-adjusted), but I still keep tabs on those corners of the internet so I know what's going on, and can be prepared if/when they bubble over in a meaningful way. I see lots of hateful activity, from "boogaloo" groups that hide their violence fetish behind euphemisms and jokes about revolution, to "satirical" posts about the value of white identity and culture over other cultures and races. The other day I came across a website whose purpose was to collect the full names and photographs of (white) women who date outside their race - specifically, women who date black men - and the (white) men who date women like that. Said site has a section dedicated to women who were hurt or killed by their partners, and labels those women those who "paid their toll" for dating outside their race. I haven't seen any meaningful action by any of these groups except that website I mentioned, but the activity is there if you care to find it. It's something that worries me, specifically for my partner - who is a woman of colour.
- asguy 6y agoIf we’re thinking of the same thing (related to ‘coal’) thats looking like it’s a 4chan troll site.
- vzidex 6y agoYes, we're thinking of the same website. I've been around on 4chan long enough to know that "troll" most often is equivalent to what the site really feels, or at least some of the people on there. The "troll" or "satire" label is only there to try to evoke plausible deniability - as in the case of "for legal purposes my call for violence against this person is a joke". i.e. the sorts of people - in general - who browse the more unsavory parts of 4chan/8chan/etc are very fond of their dogwhistles.
- asguy 6y agoThe way I read it, 4chan is like a concentrated version of what it was like to be a teenager at the edge of society. You stir the pot and feed off the energy that people respond with. If you live in a Christian conservative community, you leave pamphlets full of gay porn outside church. In a progressive community, you make racist websites about interracial dating. They aren’t pro gay porn or pro racism, they’re pro getting a reaction out of people, that they find hilarious. We encourage them with our outrage.
- generalpass 6y ago5 males aged 13-15 with basic self-taught networking skillz could wreak a huge amount of havoc such that it would throw off observations that are based on web activity. It is one of the reasons that anecdotal observations of online behaviors I consider to approach zero value, with some exceptions. And, obviously, a lot of those kids are older and still engaging the same juvenile behaviors.
- diffrinse 6y ago"4chan is like a concentrated version of what it was like to be a teenager at the edge of society" Which teenagers and which edge of society, I'm fairly certain they're not all the same. Also your post is what every reader of 4chan says when the discussion comes up.
- freefriedrice 6y agoNarrative? Yes yes, because 99.9% of white christian american terrorists are women. /s Were you born today?
- dang 6y agoIf you keep posting like this to HN we will have to ban you again. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.
- liamcardenas 6y agoThis would’ve been a good comment if you had left out the part in the parentheses. I’d say it’s more of a class thing. They will be angry at the the ruling class and wealthy. I don’t think they are going to be taking it out on old ladies...
- vzidex 6y agoThat's what you'd hope for, but in practice that's not what I'm seeing. The anger I see online is directed at politicians in some cases - but usually for said politicians supporting social programs, pro-immigration policies, and anti-gun policies. In the rest of cases, anger is indeed directed at LGBTQ+ people - especially towards trans people - people of color - especially blacks, and increasingly Asians - and women - especially those who are viewed as "promiscuous".
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- boatmeal 6y agoThis is entirely due to a weird filter bubble you've created for yourself. You're focused on the 0.01% of people lurking on 4chan and not the mainstream news media which always come from a worldview assuming the wealthy are evil, men are evil and white people are evil and that all inequalities in the world are due to these evil people getting something at the expense of others and calling for more and more policies to harm this group to give more power and wealth to others.
- klmadfejno 6y agoEh, I think it's a decent label. Individuals belonging to a social group with a presumption of power (in many western contexts, white men) tend to behave as described above. Individuals belonging to groups with low presumptions of power just tend to be problematic within their own community. You don't see many long lasting violent weak minority supremacy groups.
- maximente 6y agolink to paper please if available online?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- dfxm12 6y agoOur sons like The Dream, Ansel Elgort, Brian Phillip, all mentioned in the article as having OnlyFans accounts?
- generalpass 6y ago> Our sons like The Dream, Ansel Elgort, Brian Phillip, all mentioned in the article? These seem to be people who were already known personalities. OnlyFans massive creator growth is likely largely going to be from "normies".
- smt88 6y agoWith the potential for anonymity and digital-only connections, OnlyFans is a big improvement over prostitution, strip clubs, or crushing poverty. As always, the core issue is economic insecurity, not human sexuality.
- rufus1 6y agomore like economic insecurity combined with moral decrepitude. reduce everything to economic insecurity and you're not left with much
- smt88 6y agoThere is nothing inherently immoral about showing people your naked body.
- generalpass 6y agoIt depends on the context, sort of similar to how there is "nothing inherently immoral about firing a gun." If you are an adult, showing your naked body to a minor is considered in most western societies to be immoral.
- roosterdawn 6y agoThere was a relatively viral tweet I saw a few weeks ago saying "Gen Z career options: Fulfillment Center worker or OnlyFans" with gendered undertones. For what it's worth, though, while less common, it's not that rare to see men have (and quite successful) OnlyFans. But I agree with the economic sentiment of what you're saying. It's hard not to believe that we're seeing the middle class being completely hollowed out during this pandemic.
- rewoi 6y agoInteresting I read yesterday that OnlyFans started banning for nudes and is refunding customers. Some models lost thousands of dollars. Running porn site requires a lot of paperwork and is relatively risky.
- Nextgrid 6y agoWasn't that their main cash cow and essentially the only reason for their business to exist? I've never heard of that company in SFW contexts - that's Patreon's territory.
- rewoi 6y agoIt was originally for cosplayers and models, very very soft-core, not porn. Platform is liable if it is offering prostitution (google "Craigslist controversy"). Only Fans has zero paperwork for this in their disclaimers. I am not a lawyer, but I think they are in gray area.
- thow16161 6y agoDo you have a citation for this? My SO is a camgirl with an onlyfans. She's transitioned from mostly live streaming on MFC to mostly doing shoots and vids for OnlyFans. OnlyFans has become a substantial part of her income.
- rewoi 6y agoTwitter, but will not post links here, should be searchable. I think it will follow Premium Snapchat and similar platforms...
- marpstar 6y agoMy opinion: Porn is the new drug. Our daughters are the dealers and our sons are the users. Sex addiction fueled by free internet porn has ruined countless lives. At least OnlyFans is behind a paywall, keeping it out of view of children.
- jseliger 6y agoSex addiction fueled by free internet porn has ruined countless lives. I would like to see a citation on this. Moral panics around sexuality are at least a couple centuries old, and technologies that are said to have contributed to or created them include the printing press, radio, the bicycle, the car, TV, movies, magazines, and now the Internet. For many of the earlier technologies, Gay Talese's book Thy Neighbor's Wife has a serviceable overview of the moral panics.
- smt88 6y agoNicole Prause is a lucid, pioneering researcher on such issues, and she has spent a lot of time debunking myths like the one GP proposes. One write-up here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-the-erotic-code/201911/how-porn-and-sex-are-different-in-the-brain https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-the-er... (She has unfortunately become a target of certain right-wing elements, so if you Google her, you will find a lot of non-scientific attacks. You should read her publications directly and form your own opinion.)
- mikevm 6y agoNicole Prause did no myth busting, and your blaming of "right-wing elements" on disagreements with her is downright disingeneous. See https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-about-the-studies/critiques-of-questionable-debunking-propaganda-pieces/peer-reviewed-critiques-of-prause-et-al-2015/ https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articl... I think that the recent scientific articles cited on https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/ https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/ and the countless of self-reports by men in various "NoFap" communities make a pretty good case the porn-addiction is not a myth. Also, see: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-about-the-studies/critiques-of-questionable-debunking-propaganda-pieces/is-nicole-prause-influenced-by-the-porn-industry/ https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articl...
- econcon 6y agoAs I read some women in the article are making as much as a talented ivy league graduate who joins a tech company. It seems amoral to prevent them from making money, why don't we see it as a talent as we see "tech jobs" as talent? Can it really do more damage than what tech companies specially one who pedal ads and sell customer data and give people anxiety?
- jbob2000 6y agoThe message this sends to girls is that if you’re pretty, this is the easiest way to make a lot of money. It damages the work of people who have spent decades trying to get women to be valued for things other than their bodies.
- ausbah 6y agoI think the message of telling a person what is and isn't acceptable behavior based only on their gender / sex does nothing but reinforce harmful stereotypes and expectations
- gaze 6y agoThis says more about the relationship between value and money than it does about what is or isn't valuable.
- haunter 6y agoThats incredibly patronizing
- saagarjha 6y agoMen often do physical labor, something which they are on average physiologically better at. We don't discourage them from doing that because we "only value men for their bodies".
- kanox 6y agoPhysical labor is very commonly looked down upon.
- ausbah 6y agoI am all for letting people do what they like with their bodies, but if people are trying to makes ends meet and they believe the only way of doing so is via selling pictures of their bodies - I think society has another massive moral failing on its hands and this probably an unrefined opinion, but I feel like firing a worker for running a NSFW OnlyFans account (or similar) would, if not should, run agrounds for sexual harassment or unlawful termination. or at the very least be should be called out for being rooted in unwarranted social standards and expectations
- rewoi 6y agoI would say that selling nudes is pretty nice work, compared to farming, fast food or roofing. If anything real pornstars and prostitutes are leaving their professions, because they make more money as streamers :-))
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoYou cannot in one breath say you're "all for" something then immediately caveat it. The "moral failing" of society is the inability to provide for those who are hungry, under-housed, sick, not sex work. People clearly cannot make ends meet due to a global pandemic, massive unemployment, all within a system with increasingly restricted upward mobility.
- bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago> The "moral failing" of society is the inability to provide for those who are hungry, under-housed, sick, not sex work. Is that not exactly what the OP said? You cannot in one breath be performatively outraged at someone's opinion and then immediately agree with it.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoClearly OP was linking selling photos of one's body to the moral failing. They make no mention of those systemic issues. "... they believe the only way of doing so is via selling pictures of their bodies - I think society has another massive moral failing on its hands" I don't agree that the moral failing is that people can earn money this way.
- mydongle 6y agoAs a guy, I'm cool with this kind of stuff. But what message does this send to girls who are not considered attractive enough or just don't want to do this kind of work? The message is that all the study, work, and effort to work in a meaningful career is a freaking joke, when all it takes is to be born a certain way and make huge amounts of money selling your body. On the other hand, we have a generation of young males who will be trapped in this vampiric system where their money and time are spent on girls who wouldn't even look at them if they crossed paths on the street, instead of going out there and building real relationships. I'm just generalizing of course, don't think I'm saying this applies to everyone. But man, we are so fucked.
- krapp 6y agoSociety already sends girls the message that their greatest asset is their looks, and their value in society is their ability to attract a man. That beautiful women don't have to work hard to make money or succeed in society isn't exactly a revelation to anyone. Society already also sends boys the message that their greatest value lies in their sexual exploits, and that as long as they have money and power and are aggressive enough, sex with beautiful women is their just and deserved reward. Both of these signals are primarily sent through popular media, and their purpose is to reinforce outdated notions of both masculinity and femininity, and superficial and exploitative ideals of relationships and sex which lend themselves more readily to consumerism and commercial exploitation. None of this is in any way new.
- noirbot 6y agoBut just because it's not new doesn't mean we should accept it or cheer it on as it continues in new forms. I'd argue a lot of the movement in culture over the last 20 years especially has been trying to move away from those trends and messages, even if it's not all fully successful.
- nelaboras 6y agoI doubt that good looking women have such an easy life as you seem to think. Being attractive goes along with sexual harassment from the early teens onwards - stares, commdnts, unwanted touching, .. This doesn't stop until they turn 40+. I've seen 12(ish) year olds or moms with small children getting lewd comments. In later years attractive women struggle exactly because of the trope you describe - all their achievements are doubted because others think those are just due to their looks and genetic lottery. And they can never be sure whether a male offer of support is genuine kindness or collegiality or an attempt to get in their pants. Another example: I travel 2x/month for work. When I do I go for runs, roam late around the neighbourhoods of unknown areas to take photos, grab a beer and chat with locals, etc. I dont have to fear too much harm beyond a robbery. My female colleagues all have a very similar travel schedule but they don't see or experience nearly as much of the cities they travel to, simply because as a woman you have to fear much more for your bodily integrity than us men. Not saying anyone is really at fault here (except our fellow men that don't respect boundaries/common decency) or that being unattractive is better (especially for women that has its own downsides) but it definitely is not all rainbow and sunshine just because a woman has good looks. Be kind to all, whether beautiful or not.
- troughway 6y agoTo people coming in to read these comments - are you surprised? Me neither.
- SirSavary 6y agoI'm surprised and disappointed with myself for expecting more. Selling nudes is great... Until it isn't.
- drummer 6y agoRemember to read "the manipulated man" by esther vilar.
- oceanghost 6y agoI find the whole thing narcissistic, shallow, and distasteful. HOWEVER, that is part of the cost of a free society (as much as we are). People are free to make mistakes. My problem with this is how it's marketed. I happen to have found myself single earlier this year... and I would say 80% of the traffic on dating sites is these onlyfans/snapchat folks. The rest of the split is outright scammers and the occasional lonely heart peppered in. The dating sites have a symbiotic relationship with these folks-- they need someone to draw users/payers in and this is the way to do it with the most plausible deniability. Some dating sites are way more guilty than others, with a few being outright scams in my opinion (Hily is one that's a scam).
- diffrinse 6y agoThe problem with modern society is everyone's a master of plausible deniability. Our obsession with legalism over plain ol ethics in America has created a culture where everyone's assessing what they can and cannot get away with and going from there, in so many ways and domains. This is why enough comments in this thread are just circular arguments thinly veiling an opinion that does not want to fully shed itself into the light. America has thus become such contradictory place that trust between random strangers is null and void, already a Hobbesian game of stalemate. Progressives aren't any better; they rely on implicit, unwritten rules just as much as any strictly heteronormative conservative and so struggle with ethical nuance just as much. Until Americans stop trying to game each other for what they can get instead of exposing themselves to one another utterly whenever they have to confront real, indissoluble ethical problems that can't be brute forced by partisanship. And it's precisely because America really has no culture that it falls on America to face up to this task more than any other country. Edit: No really, go back and re-read Leviathan, Hobbes doesn't say a state of nature is all-out violence, he specifically says nothing happens ("no industry or culture"); it's a stalemate. Nobody makes a move, so everybody loses
- totony 6y agoI think this is exhuberated by the this very same lack of culture you are referring. Outting youself and your ethics instantly targets you to the opposing views in ways hard to defend against and enables what the "cancel culture" is good at
- diffrinse 6y ago"Cancel Culture" is the epitome of American culture, it's truest son precisely because it is its prodigal son, exactly like the plot of King Lear, only America is King Lear, wandering around destitute still thinking its King when it thought it could have its cake and eat it too. Which goes back to my original post above.
- rland 6y agoI watched this video recently about OnlyFans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMojvschs0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMojvschs0 It's more than just the content itself. "Becoming a fan" is a simulacra of a relationship, commodified. This already existed with escorts, of course, but never at this scale. My personality type is probably closer to being a "consumer" than being a "producer" of content on OF. I don't use the site. But if I did, my status as a consumer would totally preclude being in a romantic relationship. Gonna go out on a limb and guess that most consumers and producers are in a similar situation -- if they're on OnlyFans, they're not in a real relationship. It's only natural that taking genuine human connection, turning it financial, and then using the internet to turn it into a commodity and producing profit would extend to sex. I'm actually surprised it took so long.
- vharuck 6y agoThings you're assuming: 1. Consumers use OnlyFans as a poor substitute to an in-person relationship. 2. It's always better to be in a romantic relationship than not. How is camgirling and pornography so different from other performance? What about comedians? They do the same thing as friends: tell jokes, laugh, entertain. A lot of them explicitly try to connect with the audience by asking questions and having short chats. But most people realize comedians aren't a substitute for friends. The only real difference is your other assumption: 3. Sexuality outside romantic relationships is immoral. You can argue that point. Personally, I'd be uncomfortable watching or interacting with a live person this way (I really didn't enjoy my only visit to a strip club). But I'm not going to generalize my psyche across others.
- totony 6y agoI think it's fair to assume most people see sexuality as an extension of a relationship (and have for a long time). I dont think it's a stretch to think this commoditization of more intimate sex work (vs porn) is likely to replace actual relationships for a lot consumers
- rland 6y agoWell, I'm not sure exactly what everyone uses OF for. I'm making the assumption that there is "something more" than just the pictures and videos, because I can search big boob on Google right now and get 2 billion hits. The "something more" is the interaction -- recognition that you exist from the person you're tipping when you tip. Being a "follower" of an onlyfans girl to me seems much more about intimacy than about pornography. I do think that in general close relationships, especially core intimate relationships like those with parents and spouses, are the most important things in human life. I guess that's my opinion but I find it hard to believe that anyone would disagree. My argument really isn't about sexuality at all, because I don't think OF is about sexuality, really. Sex is a part of it but not the core of the platform. And it's not morality. I don't think it's morally wrong to do this, I do think it's depressing. That we feel so disconnected from one another that we are willing to forgo the "real thing" for a simulation. I'm sure that for all of history there is some baseline level of the population that, for one reason or another, finds it so difficult to connect that they're not willing to enter a "real" relationship at all. What I worry about is if this portion of the population is growing, because there's a profit motive, or a psychological short circuit, or some disconnect caused by modern life. It's hard to articulate exactly what, here. I just feel that there's something broken about OF or the world we've created that enables it to be so successful.
- rjpn 6y agoIt is surprising as well as depressing that someone can get enough money to buy a house from OnlyFans payout. Goes to say how many people spend money on that kind of stuff. Instagram models living rich lifestyle is different as they endorse products and advertising is involved. This is just people paying to watch someones naked photos.
- sneak 6y agoWhy is that in any way depressing? Making others feel better via a personal connection is one of the most noble professions one can pursue. It’s a lot more important than meaningless “influencer marketing” covert advertising that exists only to make people buy shit they don’t need.
- troughway 6y ago>Why is that in any way depressing? The connection is fake. The men are desperate. The women are sleazy.
- MuffinFlavored 6y ago> The connection is fake. The men are desperate. The women are sleazy. I'm with you on the first two parts but the third one is going to get you slammed here. Women who perform sex work are held in equal/high regard by the members of this community.
- legostormtroopr 6y agoMore power to people selling if it works for them, I'm just concerned they aren't thinking about their futures. As crass as people will say this is, selling your body is selling access to a depreciating asset. While they might be making good money now, eventually these girls will grow up. Slowly they'll see subscribers dip, but only enough for them to think they can adjust their product. But there will always be someone younger, or just newer, and what they are selling won't be a "hot commodity" any more. At that point to either drop out broke, or creep towards more hardcore offerings. Eventually they'll be burned out of the system, they'll have burned through their early career, likely with little to show for it, and with no real career skills or plan.
- NoahTheDuke 6y agoThis sounds like most careers, though. Except for the sensational language, how is this different than agism in the software industry, or folks who never become managers? In my (limited) experience, most people don’t climb the ranks or get major pay increases, especially during a pandemic like this.
- Proziam 6y agoThe agism you reference doesn't exist across the software industry as a whole. There's a massive demand for "old" folks who are familiar with technologies that are considered outdated.
- legostormtroopr 6y agoAgism in the software industry is only a big issue in the "startup scene", in industry its not as big an issue and experience software architects are always in demand, even if they don't become "managers". And even if you aren't climbing ranks, as long as you keep up your skills you can stay in a job in some places for a long time. What I am saying is that people who go into "camming" don't have that option. Eventually their audience will go away.
- seibelj 6y agoWho would have guessed so many people on HN are against individual freedom? There is absolutely zero ethically or morally wrong with someone selling sex, or buying sex from someone else. Or maybe we should ban pop music stars from revealing too much skin in their music videos? Where do you draw the line between "This is immoral!" and "Wow, what a successful person!" Just ignore it if you don't like it. No one puts a gun to your head to pay someone for sex - so don't point your guns at them for doing so.
- MuffinFlavored 6y ago> There is absolutely zero ethically or morally wrong with someone selling sex, or buying sex from someone else. That's an insanely modern/left view with zero consideration to basically all historically socially accepted conservative views of the past. It's trendy to support sex workers online in 2020 but in the 2000s I'm pretty sure 95% of white suburbia wouldn't have wanted their daughters hanging out with sex workers.
- seibelj 6y agoCan you explain what is morally wrong with buying or selling sex? I’m not “trendy”, it’s a deeply held philosophical belief about individual freedom.
- MuffinFlavored 6y agoI don't feel like the average person who says "I'm ok with females selling sex" would actually be ok + proud of their mother / daughter / sister / grandma / cousin if they sold sex for a living.
- seibelj 6y agoIt doesn't matter what anyone feels "proud" about. I wouldn't be proud of my daughter being a tax accountant, I would rather she was a porn star (I am 100% serious - porn stars add value to society and make people happy). We live in a free society, and if someone wants to be filmed naked, or paid to have sex, that's their decision to make regardless if it makes you feel icky. I hope you have spent your whole life abstaining from pornography, because you must feel a great deal of anger at them and shame for what they did.
- Igelau 6y ago> the farmer’s market of porn Now that's an elevator pitch.