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> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities ser

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany, where people have sufficient trust in their government and a massive social safety net to catch employees who have to be out of work for health reasons--ANY health reasons, but COVID specifically in this instance--and we're able to trust that our fellow residents will act reasonably without forcing others back to work, than in America where the least-powerful and least-well-off of us have the cover of unemployment payments ripped away because some flag-wrapped know-betters demand Golden Corral reopen for buffet service after getting a haircut.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
I will judge a thing on it's merits. I will judge a government by how it behaves, not by my preferred political party. So... in the UK we have the Daily Briefings about covid. Each time I listen to it I hear politicians (they take it in turns) to come out and give us a fucking performance, projecting their voice, projecting (they think) 'calm' and 'competent' and 'in charge of it all' while they spew words for 15 or 20 minutes which could have been given in 5 at the most. Then it's time for questions from journalists. Which get answered if convenient or if inconvenient they'll answer a question that wasn't asked, all the fucking while spinning to make themselves look like they've not made a series of serious mistakes. And each time I hear it my confidence in their competence drops further. And they've no idea why. They don't seem to understand respect is earned.
- r_c_a_d 6y ago
  I think the daily briefings are good. It's not just a politician talking; it's a politician flanked by two scientists or public health experts. The politician explains what is going on and the experts explain why, with data. This is the first time in my life I can remember politicians so publicly deferring to experts with evidence.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    I didn't mention the scientists because I'm not criticising them. The only reason politicians are deferring to experts is they've realised experts are actually useful whereas before they didn't like them (something about the time for experts is over, something like that, can anyone recall?) Conversely you haven't touched on the fact that the buggers are constantly spinning, deferring blame for not getting enough PPE, plain deceit about the number of tests done etc. The UK has not done well. That was avoidable. If you defend that, you let the responsible ones off the hook and they will do it again.
    - matthewheath 6y ago
      > something about the time for experts is over, something like that, can anyone recall? Michael Gove said, during the Brexit referendum, that "people in this country have had enough of experts".[1] -- [1] https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d108c https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d1...
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        That's the one, thanks.
        r_c_a_d 6y ago
        I don't like Gove, so it feels strange for me to "defend" him, but this is an interesting quote that keeps coming up. In a later interview [1] he said this: "When I was being interviewed on Sky by Faisal Islam, he put it to me that there were a number of economists and organizations of economic prestige that questioned the arguments for leaving the European Union and said that it would be a mistake if we did. I countered it by saying people have had enough of experts from organizations with acronyms that have got things so wrong in the past. And Faisal Islam, as a skilled interrogator, cut me off half way, so while I completed my sentence he took the first half and said ‘people have had enough experts?’ and used that as a fencing posture in the interview itself." [1] https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/michael-gove-trouble-experts https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/michael-gove-tro...
roenxi 6y ago
> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany, where people have sufficient trust in their government... I'm a bit hesitant to compare to either of them because I can't read the local news. That being said, didn't Sweden go with a lockdown-lite policy? The Sweedes do have the freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to their liberty. EDIT And the lockdowns are threatening something like 265 million people experiencing famine [0]. "flag-wrapped know-betters demand Golden Corral reopen for buffet service" is trivialising a serious thing here; the economy isn't a nice-to-have. It is the major generator of all the prosperity that exists in the world. It is too complicated for me to understand causes and effects, but if it doesn't start back up again ASAP the hurt will get worse. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/21/coronavirus-pandemic-will-cause-famine-of-biblical-proportions https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/21/c...
- akhilcacharya 6y ago
  Demand isn’t going to go up magically because of reopening. I’m not seeing much evidence for pent up demand outside of hair cuts, which are not exactly essential
  - ericmay 6y ago
    I'm not sure about that. I'm ready to go to the gym, go out to restaurants, and just yesterday they took the caution tape off of the school playground and lots of kids were there. I don't think demand will immediately return to 100%, but I think quite a few people are itching to get out and spend money and enjoy life. Maybe not in some areas, but most of the country is probably ready to go.
    - quickthrowman 6y ago
      40% of households making under 40k a year have had a job loss since March
      - beerandt 6y ago
rubidium 6y ago
Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion. I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.
- ohashi 6y ago
  Many people who want a stay at home are at risk and don't want to die. Where is their compassion?
- mindslight 6y ago
  That's false compassion. What you're effectively arguing is for those people to increase their family's exposure in a last-ditch attempt to save their business (and probably still lose it anyway), rather than directly addressing the economic problems facing them. The cognitive dissonance comes about because it's not very American to expect or ask for help. Even though we're mainly in this position because the government itself mismanaged economic policy for decades, resulting in us being collectively overleveraged.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  People's basic survival needs have been threatened before this when they would get laid off. The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts and no one cared when companies moved manufacturing offshore. No one cared that healthcare is tied to jobs. I've talked to a lot of people who said yea I need to work, but I don't WANT to work, I have to. And that is not a failure of the lockdown. it is a failure of this very nation to take care of its own so that the rich can get richer.
  - ericmay 6y ago
    > The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts Is this really necessary? It's a very inaccurate, and hurtful thing to say.
    - 6y ago
dtwest 6y ago
Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That being said, none of these countries are handling this well, it's just annoying to see the double standard.
- 2rsf 6y ago
  Why do you compare almost an entire continent to one country ? why not compare Sweden to NYC ? Sweden is handling it, not great but not terrible and so is the US and many other countries. On top of that there is a lot that we don't understand, for example why do many Mediterranean countries has low death rate even though the sick count is not low ?
  - dtwest 6y ago
    How about we compare Wisconsin to Sweden? The article is about Wisconsin. Wisconsin (pop 5.8 mil, 10.6k cases, 418 deaths). Sweden (pop 10.2 mil, 27.9k cases, 3460 deaths).
    - 2rsf 6y ago
      How about Oman ? pop 4.829 million, 4,019 cases with only 17 deaths. Or Belgium that does have quarantine rules but still have more cases of deaths. It's not a game, and we don't fully understand how this works so maybe we should stop comparing.
      - HideousKojima 6y ago
        If we're talking about efficacy of government lockdown policies, universal healthcare, etc., then we absolutely should compare. And a cursory glance at the data suggests that government lockdown policies have minimal effect on the spread of the virus, there seems to be little to no correlation between severity of lockdown and cases/deaths
microcolonel 6y ago
It's not much of a chasm, trust me. Once the ends justify the means, the state can build up in a couple decades to doing basically anything. It didn't take long in Venezuela.
cpwright 6y ago
Sweden is not all roses in terms of personal liberty either. You must send your children to public schools, at the risk of losing them; even during a pandemic. In the United States, home schooling is an option if you do not want to send your children to public schools. https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-sweden-it-s-illegal-to-keep-kids-home-from-school/569453292/ https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-swed...
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  First, no, you don't have to send your child to a public school. There are private schools to choose from. A proper education is a right in Sweden, and unfortunately, so many parents do a poor job at homeschooling that it isn't feasible and puts the person at a lifelong disadvantage. It is a shame that we (Americans) stand for this - the right for a parent to under-educate or mis-educate their children. If one allows for homeschool, there should be robust oversight, which in most states, there isn't.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    I grew up in Virginia, and any of the home schooled kids were hyper religious and profoundly ignorant. I bumped into a few of them at a community college after I got out of the military. The USMC indoc'd me hard with the groupthink, and that took a while to get past, but I could at least do high school Trig and had basic history. I remember one girl who didn't believe the Holy Roman Empire existed and despite her extensively Christian background, didn't know a damn thing about the Crusades.
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      I knew one family that homeschooled to different degrees: The oldest was until 8/9th grade, though the younger ones went to public school sooner. They weren't bad off, though obviously conservative and pretty much any friends were also homeschooled or were through church or boy scouts. The oldest really had issues adjusting to the other students. But I know folks like the ones you met exist as well, and it irritates me to no end that we, as a society, allow this to happen. It is easy to see that such a thing might have lifelong consequences.
rayiner 6y ago
> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany Sweden never closed down, and Germany is in the midst of reopening. As to the safety net—there is no evidence that safety net has made a difference. (I’m part, I suspect, because the Us already has a comprehensive safety net for the elderly population that is mainly affected by COVID-19). The death rate in the US, per 100,000 people, is well below that of Sweden. It’s also far lower than the death rate in countries with well developed safety nets like France and Italy. I strongly suspect that people in Germany/Sweden, etc., have more trust in their government because the people themselves are simply less far apart. To pick a controversial but illustrative example: in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in America. The right is currently focused on ending abortion entirely, while the left is trying to extend abortions into the third trimester (which are pretty much unprecedented in Europe). Or take taxes. Many in the right want to dismantle the existing tax system. But on the left, they treat lowering corporate taxes to the same level as Sweden or Germany (and France and Canada, etc.) not merely as bad policy, but as an affront to morality and decency. The same is true for COVID-19. In every European country, there is a grown up debate about balancing health and safety with the need to reopen the economy. The American left, meanwhile, has condemned even the idea of such balancing as racist, classist, colonialism, what have you. The left greeted travel bans—which countries from Germany to New Zealand to Denmark have imposed to great effect—as manifest racism and xenophobia. They’re not talking about reopening, as Europe is already doing, but sheltering in place through the rest of 2020. The right, meanwhile, is shouting “give me liberty or give me death.” There is no trust because everybody is crazy, and everybody hates each other, and we should give up being one country and disband the union already.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Great comment and analysis.
- thatfrenchguy 6y ago
  > : in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in Americ You seem to forget that in France & Germany, people go to the Netherlands or Spain for abortions after 12 weeks. It’s not a « compromise », it’s just a 1970s law that hasn’t been changed because conservative groups are annoying.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

I will judge a thing on it's merits. I will judge a government by how it behaves, not by my preferred political party. So... in the UK we have the Daily Briefings about covid. Each time I listen to it I hear politicians (they take it in turns) to come out and give us a fucking performance, projecting their voice, projecting (they think) 'calm' and 'competent' and 'in charge of it all' while they spew words for 15 or 20 minutes which could have been given in 5 at the most. Then it's time for questions from journalists. Which get answered if convenient or if inconvenient they'll answer a question that wasn't asked, all the fucking while spinning to make themselves look like they've not made a series of serious mistakes. And each time I hear it my confidence in their competence drops further. And they've no idea why. They don't seem to understand respect is earned.

r_c_a_d 6y ago
I think the daily briefings are good. It's not just a politician talking; it's a politician flanked by two scientists or public health experts. The politician explains what is going on and the experts explain why, with data. This is the first time in my life I can remember politicians so publicly deferring to experts with evidence.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  I didn't mention the scientists because I'm not criticising them. The only reason politicians are deferring to experts is they've realised experts are actually useful whereas before they didn't like them (something about the time for experts is over, something like that, can anyone recall?) Conversely you haven't touched on the fact that the buggers are constantly spinning, deferring blame for not getting enough PPE, plain deceit about the number of tests done etc. The UK has not done well. That was avoidable. If you defend that, you let the responsible ones off the hook and they will do it again.
  - matthewheath 6y ago
    > something about the time for experts is over, something like that, can anyone recall? Michael Gove said, during the Brexit referendum, that "people in this country have had enough of experts".[1] -- [1] https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d108c https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d1...
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      That's the one, thanks.
      - r_c_a_d 6y ago
        I don't like Gove, so it feels strange for me to "defend" him, but this is an interesting quote that keeps coming up. In a later interview [1] he said this: "When I was being interviewed on Sky by Faisal Islam, he put it to me that there were a number of economists and organizations of economic prestige that questioned the arguments for leaving the European Union and said that it would be a mistake if we did. I countered it by saying people have had enough of experts from organizations with acronyms that have got things so wrong in the past. And Faisal Islam, as a skilled interrogator, cut me off half way, so while I completed my sentence he took the first half and said ‘people have had enough experts?’ and used that as a fencing posture in the interview itself." [1] https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/michael-gove-trouble-experts https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/michael-gove-tro...

roenxi 6y ago

> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany, where people have sufficient trust in their government... I'm a bit hesitant to compare to either of them because I can't read the local news. That being said, didn't Sweden go with a lockdown-lite policy? The Sweedes do have the freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to their liberty. EDIT And the lockdowns are threatening something like 265 million people experiencing famine [0]. "flag-wrapped know-betters demand Golden Corral reopen for buffet service" is trivialising a serious thing here; the economy isn't a nice-to-have. It is the major generator of all the prosperity that exists in the world. It is too complicated for me to understand causes and effects, but if it doesn't start back up again ASAP the hurt will get worse. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/21/coronavirus-pandemic-will-cause-famine-of-biblical-proportions https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/21/c...

akhilcacharya 6y ago
Demand isn’t going to go up magically because of reopening. I’m not seeing much evidence for pent up demand outside of hair cuts, which are not exactly essential
- ericmay 6y ago
  I'm not sure about that. I'm ready to go to the gym, go out to restaurants, and just yesterday they took the caution tape off of the school playground and lots of kids were there. I don't think demand will immediately return to 100%, but I think quite a few people are itching to get out and spend money and enjoy life. Maybe not in some areas, but most of the country is probably ready to go.
  - quickthrowman 6y ago
    40% of households making under 40k a year have had a job loss since March
    - beerandt 6y ago

rubidium 6y ago

Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion. I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.

ohashi 6y ago
Many people who want a stay at home are at risk and don't want to die. Where is their compassion?
mindslight 6y ago
That's false compassion. What you're effectively arguing is for those people to increase their family's exposure in a last-ditch attempt to save their business (and probably still lose it anyway), rather than directly addressing the economic problems facing them. The cognitive dissonance comes about because it's not very American to expect or ask for help. Even though we're mainly in this position because the government itself mismanaged economic policy for decades, resulting in us being collectively overleveraged.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
People's basic survival needs have been threatened before this when they would get laid off. The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts and no one cared when companies moved manufacturing offshore. No one cared that healthcare is tied to jobs. I've talked to a lot of people who said yea I need to work, but I don't WANT to work, I have to. And that is not a failure of the lockdown. it is a failure of this very nation to take care of its own so that the rich can get richer.
- ericmay 6y ago
  > The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts Is this really necessary? It's a very inaccurate, and hurtful thing to say.
  - 6y ago

dtwest 6y ago

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That being said, none of these countries are handling this well, it's just annoying to see the double standard.

2rsf 6y ago
Why do you compare almost an entire continent to one country ? why not compare Sweden to NYC ? Sweden is handling it, not great but not terrible and so is the US and many other countries. On top of that there is a lot that we don't understand, for example why do many Mediterranean countries has low death rate even though the sick count is not low ?
- dtwest 6y ago
  How about we compare Wisconsin to Sweden? The article is about Wisconsin. Wisconsin (pop 5.8 mil, 10.6k cases, 418 deaths). Sweden (pop 10.2 mil, 27.9k cases, 3460 deaths).
  - 2rsf 6y ago
    How about Oman ? pop 4.829 million, 4,019 cases with only 17 deaths. Or Belgium that does have quarantine rules but still have more cases of deaths. It's not a game, and we don't fully understand how this works so maybe we should stop comparing.
    - HideousKojima 6y ago
      If we're talking about efficacy of government lockdown policies, universal healthcare, etc., then we absolutely should compare. And a cursory glance at the data suggests that government lockdown policies have minimal effect on the spread of the virus, there seems to be little to no correlation between severity of lockdown and cases/deaths

microcolonel 6y ago

It's not much of a chasm, trust me. Once the ends justify the means, the state can build up in a couple decades to doing basically anything. It didn't take long in Venezuela.

cpwright 6y ago

Sweden is not all roses in terms of personal liberty either. You must send your children to public schools, at the risk of losing them; even during a pandemic. In the United States, home schooling is an option if you do not want to send your children to public schools. https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-sweden-it-s-illegal-to-keep-kids-home-from-school/569453292/ https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-swed...

Broken_Hippo 6y ago
First, no, you don't have to send your child to a public school. There are private schools to choose from. A proper education is a right in Sweden, and unfortunately, so many parents do a poor job at homeschooling that it isn't feasible and puts the person at a lifelong disadvantage. It is a shame that we (Americans) stand for this - the right for a parent to under-educate or mis-educate their children. If one allows for homeschool, there should be robust oversight, which in most states, there isn't.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  I grew up in Virginia, and any of the home schooled kids were hyper religious and profoundly ignorant. I bumped into a few of them at a community college after I got out of the military. The USMC indoc'd me hard with the groupthink, and that took a while to get past, but I could at least do high school Trig and had basic history. I remember one girl who didn't believe the Holy Roman Empire existed and despite her extensively Christian background, didn't know a damn thing about the Crusades.
  - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    I knew one family that homeschooled to different degrees: The oldest was until 8/9th grade, though the younger ones went to public school sooner. They weren't bad off, though obviously conservative and pretty much any friends were also homeschooled or were through church or boy scouts. The oldest really had issues adjusting to the other students. But I know folks like the ones you met exist as well, and it irritates me to no end that we, as a society, allow this to happen. It is easy to see that such a thing might have lifelong consequences.

rayiner 6y ago

> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany Sweden never closed down, and Germany is in the midst of reopening. As to the safety net—there is no evidence that safety net has made a difference. (I’m part, I suspect, because the Us already has a comprehensive safety net for the elderly population that is mainly affected by COVID-19). The death rate in the US, per 100,000 people, is well below that of Sweden. It’s also far lower than the death rate in countries with well developed safety nets like France and Italy. I strongly suspect that people in Germany/Sweden, etc., have more trust in their government because the people themselves are simply less far apart. To pick a controversial but illustrative example: in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in America. The right is currently focused on ending abortion entirely, while the left is trying to extend abortions into the third trimester (which are pretty much unprecedented in Europe). Or take taxes. Many in the right want to dismantle the existing tax system. But on the left, they treat lowering corporate taxes to the same level as Sweden or Germany (and France and Canada, etc.) not merely as bad policy, but as an affront to morality and decency. The same is true for COVID-19. In every European country, there is a grown up debate about balancing health and safety with the need to reopen the economy. The American left, meanwhile, has condemned even the idea of such balancing as racist, classist, colonialism, what have you. The left greeted travel bans—which countries from Germany to New Zealand to Denmark have imposed to great effect—as manifest racism and xenophobia. They’re not talking about reopening, as Europe is already doing, but sheltering in place through the rest of 2020. The right, meanwhile, is shouting “give me liberty or give me death.” There is no trust because everybody is crazy, and everybody hates each other, and we should give up being one country and disband the union already.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Great comment and analysis.
thatfrenchguy 6y ago
> : in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in Americ You seem to forget that in France & Germany, people go to the Netherlands or Spain for abortions after 12 weeks. It’s not a « compromise », it’s just a 1970s law that hasn’t been changed because conservative groups are annoying.