8 ms·

It's not an attack, though, and it's not a reflection of who a person is. Privilege is about the circumstances the person is in, how lucky they are in the cosmi

It's not an attack, though, and it's not a reflection of who a person is. Privilege is about the circumstances the person is in, how lucky they are in the cosmic lottery of life. Being privileged doesn't make you a bad person. Failing to recognize your privilege may, depending on your moral framework.

pb7 6y ago
>Failing to recognize your privilege may What does that even mean? This is code for “you should feel guilty for who you are” and generally a big reason why people become combative when the term “privilege” gets brought up.
- daenz 6y ago
  It's part of the kafkaesque mentality that denial is the strongest proof of guilt.
  - pb7 6y ago
    Denial is proof of guilt? Someone tell the justice system they’ve been doing it all wrong.
    - daenz 6y ago
      >Denial is proof of guilt? It's part of the bizarro "privilege" narratives. In their framework, if you deny the existence of your privilege, you are proving you have it even more, because only a "privileged" person is capable of ignoring the concept of privileged/unprivileged
    - remarkEon 6y ago
      The parent is referencing the "Kafka Trap", which I believe was originally coined on ESR's blog a decade or so ago. This rhetorical construction is used a lot in these kinds of discussions, and, because of its crudeness, is why people tend to get pretty bent out of shape during said discussion. >One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122
- lghh 6y ago
  It's not feeling guilty of who you are, it's being aware of who you are.
  - pb7 6y ago
    I would believe that except for the “white” part. It is used to make people feel guilty for advantages that they may not even benefit from purely because they fall into a certain group.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      It's used to make people aware of the advantages they often have because they fall into a certain group. The goal isn't to make someone feel guilty, it's to make them conscious of their advantages in hopes they help to dismantle them.
      - pb7 6y ago
        It's used to attribute individual excellence to generalized advantages of a certain group of people. If these advantages were as powerful and prevalent as you suggest, there wouldn't be more millions of white people in poverty. They certainly have some effect but it is often exaggerated to diminish the accomplishments of all people in the group. It is more fruitful to highlight the disadvantages that a group of people experience so that we may fix them and bring everyone up.
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        > It is more fruitful to highlight the disadvantages that a group of people experience so that we may fix them and bring everyone up. I see it as the same. It's one thing to say, "I don't have to worry about X because I am white" and basically the same to say, "They do have to worry about X because they are non-white". > If these advantages were as powerful and prevalent as you suggest, there wouldn't be more millions of white people in poverty. I don't think anyone who believes in white privilege believes that it is a monolithic escalator to success. It makes some things easier. But there also exists privilege due to class, health, access to education, gender, climate, family support, etc. There are many, many types of privilege, and being white is just one of them that has an interaction with the others. (e.g. is it more advantageous to be white and able bodied or white and not able bodied? Is it more advantageous to be white and poor or black and poor? etc.) > It's used to attribute individual excellence to generalized advantages of a certain group of people. If you believe that individual excellence is the only factor, then how would you explain the demographic data about fortune 500 CEOs? One hypothesis is that privilege played a role -- that they had advantages due to race, class, gender, health, etc. that combined with their individual achievement resulted in their success. If privilege didn't play a role in their success, is it just a coincidence that the demographics overwhelmingly skew white male?
- _qwfv 6y ago
  I'll try to explain with an example: I am able bodied, I can walk and run easily. When I visit a store or bus depot or whatever, I can navigate it with ease. This is privilege, and I am not a bad person for being able bodied. I shouldn't feel guilt because I can walk. But it's important to recognize that my experiences and my abilities might be different than others. An architect designing a public building with only stairs or narrow doors, or a traffic planner optimizing crossing times for an average pedestrian are cases of failing to recognize their privilege in being able bodied. If, after being made aware of their privilege, they continue to design for themselves then they may be considered immoral by some people.
  - pnako 6y ago
    It's the wrong word then. The etymology of privilege: Middle English: via Old French from Latin privilegium ‘bill or law affecting an individual’, from privus ‘private’ + lex, leg- ‘law’. In fact, in France privilèges have been abolished during the revolution. And it's not just the wrong word, it's kind of opposite; privilege generally meant the benefit of a minority, but here it's used to describe when the majority benefits, because they are the majority.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      Unfortunately, that's not how language works. Words get adopted to mean things independent of their etymology all the time. I find it confusing a lot of the time. (eg "literally" used to mean "figuratively").
      - pnako 6y ago
        That's actually how language works. We use the common, dictionary definition of words, not whatever some academic with an agenda made up.
        yokaze 6y ago
        Is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? Whose made up agenda is behind this and what is it? Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1576/ https://xkcd.com/1576/ And at least according to makers of the OED, it does not define words, it describes them: https://languages.oup.com/about-us/how-we-create-language-content/ https://languages.oup.com/about-us/how-we-create-language-co...
- opportune 6y ago
  Recognizing your privilege means keeping aware that other people may struggle with things (sexism, racism, disabilities, etc.) that you don't struggle with. That can have far reaching implications in terms of design, how you frame advice, instructions, policy, etc. For example I have given friends advice before on how to get somewhere, and been told that it won't work for them, for reasons such as them not wanting to walk alone in a certain area/time due to being a small woman, or lack of handicap accessible infrastructure making something take longer than it would for me. If being confronted with your own privilege makes you feel guilty, that sounds more like you are bothered that others are less privileged
supernova87a 6y ago
It's one thing to be self-aware and think about who you are when you formulate the arguments and opinions and solutions you put out in front of the world and to others. It's quite another thing to judge the merit of someone's opinions and solutions based on who you think they are. Figure out which you're talking about.
JamesBarney 6y ago
People say that privilege isn't an attack. But when I search for it on my Facebook, 4 of the 5 were used to deride and the other is "May you, at least once, have the privilege of writing code that never goes away and is never looked at again." Also if you search reddit for whether trans women or trans men possess male privilege you will find people arguing as if their life depended on it. And these people seem to very involved in movements where the use of the term is the most frequent so should be the most acquainted with it's use and definition.
golf3 6y ago
Privileged is used interchangeably with oppressive, there's implications to that label.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  It's not. Oppressors typically implies privileged, but the reverse is not true. I am not an oppressor because I am able bodied. Also, you wouldn't use the word privileged to talk about regimes in places with oppressive governments. You'd use the word oppressive.

pb7 6y ago

>Failing to recognize your privilege may What does that even mean? This is code for “you should feel guilty for who you are” and generally a big reason why people become combative when the term “privilege” gets brought up.

daenz 6y ago
It's part of the kafkaesque mentality that denial is the strongest proof of guilt.
- pb7 6y ago
  Denial is proof of guilt? Someone tell the justice system they’ve been doing it all wrong.
  - daenz 6y ago
    >Denial is proof of guilt? It's part of the bizarro "privilege" narratives. In their framework, if you deny the existence of your privilege, you are proving you have it even more, because only a "privileged" person is capable of ignoring the concept of privileged/unprivileged
  - remarkEon 6y ago
    The parent is referencing the "Kafka Trap", which I believe was originally coined on ESR's blog a decade or so ago. This rhetorical construction is used a lot in these kinds of discussions, and, because of its crudeness, is why people tend to get pretty bent out of shape during said discussion. >One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122
lghh 6y ago
It's not feeling guilty of who you are, it's being aware of who you are.
- pb7 6y ago
  I would believe that except for the “white” part. It is used to make people feel guilty for advantages that they may not even benefit from purely because they fall into a certain group.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    It's used to make people aware of the advantages they often have because they fall into a certain group. The goal isn't to make someone feel guilty, it's to make them conscious of their advantages in hopes they help to dismantle them.
    - pb7 6y ago
      It's used to attribute individual excellence to generalized advantages of a certain group of people. If these advantages were as powerful and prevalent as you suggest, there wouldn't be more millions of white people in poverty. They certainly have some effect but it is often exaggerated to diminish the accomplishments of all people in the group. It is more fruitful to highlight the disadvantages that a group of people experience so that we may fix them and bring everyone up.
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        > It is more fruitful to highlight the disadvantages that a group of people experience so that we may fix them and bring everyone up. I see it as the same. It's one thing to say, "I don't have to worry about X because I am white" and basically the same to say, "They do have to worry about X because they are non-white". > If these advantages were as powerful and prevalent as you suggest, there wouldn't be more millions of white people in poverty. I don't think anyone who believes in white privilege believes that it is a monolithic escalator to success. It makes some things easier. But there also exists privilege due to class, health, access to education, gender, climate, family support, etc. There are many, many types of privilege, and being white is just one of them that has an interaction with the others. (e.g. is it more advantageous to be white and able bodied or white and not able bodied? Is it more advantageous to be white and poor or black and poor? etc.) > It's used to attribute individual excellence to generalized advantages of a certain group of people. If you believe that individual excellence is the only factor, then how would you explain the demographic data about fortune 500 CEOs? One hypothesis is that privilege played a role -- that they had advantages due to race, class, gender, health, etc. that combined with their individual achievement resulted in their success. If privilege didn't play a role in their success, is it just a coincidence that the demographics overwhelmingly skew white male?
_qwfv 6y ago
I'll try to explain with an example: I am able bodied, I can walk and run easily. When I visit a store or bus depot or whatever, I can navigate it with ease. This is privilege, and I am not a bad person for being able bodied. I shouldn't feel guilt because I can walk. But it's important to recognize that my experiences and my abilities might be different than others. An architect designing a public building with only stairs or narrow doors, or a traffic planner optimizing crossing times for an average pedestrian are cases of failing to recognize their privilege in being able bodied. If, after being made aware of their privilege, they continue to design for themselves then they may be considered immoral by some people.
- pnako 6y ago
  It's the wrong word then. The etymology of privilege: Middle English: via Old French from Latin privilegium ‘bill or law affecting an individual’, from privus ‘private’ + lex, leg- ‘law’. In fact, in France privilèges have been abolished during the revolution. And it's not just the wrong word, it's kind of opposite; privilege generally meant the benefit of a minority, but here it's used to describe when the majority benefits, because they are the majority.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Unfortunately, that's not how language works. Words get adopted to mean things independent of their etymology all the time. I find it confusing a lot of the time. (eg "literally" used to mean "figuratively").
    - pnako 6y ago
      That's actually how language works. We use the common, dictionary definition of words, not whatever some academic with an agenda made up.
      - yokaze 6y ago
        Is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? Whose made up agenda is behind this and what is it? Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1576/ https://xkcd.com/1576/ And at least according to makers of the OED, it does not define words, it describes them: https://languages.oup.com/about-us/how-we-create-language-content/ https://languages.oup.com/about-us/how-we-create-language-co...
opportune 6y ago
Recognizing your privilege means keeping aware that other people may struggle with things (sexism, racism, disabilities, etc.) that you don't struggle with. That can have far reaching implications in terms of design, how you frame advice, instructions, policy, etc. For example I have given friends advice before on how to get somewhere, and been told that it won't work for them, for reasons such as them not wanting to walk alone in a certain area/time due to being a small woman, or lack of handicap accessible infrastructure making something take longer than it would for me. If being confronted with your own privilege makes you feel guilty, that sounds more like you are bothered that others are less privileged

supernova87a 6y ago

It's one thing to be self-aware and think about who you are when you formulate the arguments and opinions and solutions you put out in front of the world and to others. It's quite another thing to judge the merit of someone's opinions and solutions based on who you think they are. Figure out which you're talking about.

JamesBarney 6y ago

People say that privilege isn't an attack. But when I search for it on my Facebook, 4 of the 5 were used to deride and the other is "May you, at least once, have the privilege of writing code that never goes away and is never looked at again." Also if you search reddit for whether trans women or trans men possess male privilege you will find people arguing as if their life depended on it. And these people seem to very involved in movements where the use of the term is the most frequent so should be the most acquainted with it's use and definition.

golf3 6y ago

Privileged is used interchangeably with oppressive, there's implications to that label.

Pfhreak 6y ago
It's not. Oppressors typically implies privileged, but the reverse is not true. I am not an oppressor because I am able bodied. Also, you wouldn't use the word privileged to talk about regimes in places with oppressive governments. You'd use the word oppressive.