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To clarify, the link in 1) is where I took the number of changes from. And Re: 2) I have no doubt that Mr. Zhang knows what he's doing. I was just noting how e

by dmit 6y ago

To clarify, the link in 1) is where I took the number of changes from. And Re: 2) I have no doubt that Mr. Zhang knows what he's doing. I was just noting how even after the prodigious amount of work he has put into BS over the years, it is still falling behind JSOO which has the benefit of being more tightly bound to the parent OCaml project. I know about the different tradeoffs JSOO and BS have made. All I meant to say is that one super-productive person is apparently (and understandably) not able to keep up with upstream (i.e. Inria + Jane Street + many others) in this case. And then we have the ReasonML project that has seen even less activity recently. If ReasonML in its current state is considered a finished product that requires minimal maintenance, I couldn't think of a better endorsement, to be honest.

jordwalke 6y ago
ReasonML is an umbrella project/sponsor for many subprojects, all of which have the goal of bringing fully type safe, fast compiling, fast executing code to the widest number of developers and today that means JavaScript developers. Many ReasonML projects support or improve upstream OCaml ecosystem. For example, package management workflows (https://esy.sh https://esy.sh), interactive repls that work with Reason syntax, and OCaml syntax (see https://sketch.sh https://sketch.sh), and many community members contribute to the developer tools (next generation language server created by OCamlLabs). Others are building CI infrastructure, and many other projects. Reason Syntax was the first entry into the ecosystem. It's not done evolving/improving, and it's just the tip of the iceberg for all the projects under the umbrella. BuckleScript has been developed with Reason users in mind. Syntax is one of the most important things when introducing a language, and one of the biggest tripping points for new people trying out OCaml so it makes sense that it would be the first entry. But it's not the last, it's not the only, and it's not finished evolving/improving.
- dmit 6y ago
  Thank you for taking the time to reply, Jordan, but none of what you posted is relevant to my concerns from the above two comments.
  - jordwalke 6y ago
    I believe it does address part of your comments. At the very least: "And then we have the ReasonML project that has seen even less activity recently" You comment seemed to be based on the assumption that the Reason syntax is the sum total of the Reason project, and I provided examples that would adjust that frame of reference. See the high level goal I mentioned - bring fast development, fast running, fully type safe programming to the largest audience possible. Syntax is one important piece, but not everything, and it's not everything under the ReasonML project umbrella.
    - dmit 6y ago
      Ah, you're right. I did judge the Reason project by the number of commits its main repo has seen in the past year. But surely you'll agree that "fast development, fast running, fully type safe programming" has been achieved years ago, and any incremental improvements coming from the BS project are just that - incremental.
      - jordwalke 6y ago
        You forgot the most important part: "to the largest audience possible". I think that's the biggest disconnect here.
yawaramin 6y ago
There must be a misunderstanding here, maybe on my side, but I honestly can't see how BuckleScript is 'falling behind': it jumped from 4.02.3 to 4.06 fairly recently, with more upgrades planned, and there is ongoing work to make it emit JS that looks more and more hand-written. Its download count looks like hockey-stick growth: https://www.npmtrends.com/bs-platform https://www.npmtrends.com/bs-platform Look, JSOO is great but it has a very different goal from BuckleScript: letting OCamlers use the Opam ecosystem to make frontend apps without caring about bundle size. And that's great, but it's not what JavaScript developers want.
- dmit 6y ago
  I think you know what I mean. 4.02.3 was released in 2015. 4.06 was released in 2017. Like I said, I know the tradeoffs between JSOO and Reason. And lack of features from the past 2~3 years of OCaml development is one of them.
  - yawaramin 6y ago
    Yes, if your only heuristic of 'falling behind' is 'not getting the latest OCaml features'. It turns out that even OCaml from a few years ago is perfectly usable to build an excellent JavaScript-focused compiler.
    - dmit 6y ago
      I think "getting OCaml features at a slower rate than OCaml itself does" counts as "falling behind", yes. 2015 OCaml was an excellent language. 2020 OCaml is exquisite.
      - drbojingle 6y ago
        What feature of 2020 OCaml do you think would convince JS developers to use Reason?
        sgrove 6y ago
hongbo_zhang 6y ago
Hi, the author of BuckleScript here. JSOO and BuckleScript has very different goals, the former focuses on the compatibility with native, while the latter focuses on the interop and optimal perf on JS backend. The progress of BuckleScript is actually much faster this year if you follow the development closely. OCaml as a language which has been developed for more than 20 years is quite usable without using the latest version, our top priority is to make js interop the best, it is not to catch up the lastest release (but we do have plans to sync up once every two years).
- dmit 6y ago
  Please, you're driving me crazy. I have referred to you personally by name in two of my above comments. I know who you are! I also know about JSOO vs BS! I know! And it's super disorienting when every single prominent person from the Reason/BuckleScript ecosystem arrives in this thread just to reply directly to my comments with a canned message that has little to do with my original points. Yes, OCaml is older! Yes, OCaml circa 2015 is a useful language! But also, yes, OCaml has gained multiple useful features since 2015! In part because its development is driver by many, many people. And no, BuckleScript doesn't have some of those features as of May 2020! And it's not an indictment of Reason, but it is also a true statement that Reason/BS are lagging behind compared to what OCaml has to offer!
  - yawaramin 6y ago
    You have half of the picture, I don't believe you have the other half, which is the progress that BuckleScript is actually making in emitting clean, readable JavaScript. Fortunately, it's rather simple to see for yourself, you just need to head over to https://reasonml.github.io/en/try.html https://reasonml.github.io/en/try.html and try out some OCaml/Reason code and see what is emitted. In fact, the playground comes with various examples built-in, if you need some sample code to try out quickly.
  - wetmore 6y ago
    I'm an outsider but it appears to me that he's addressing your points. You are specifically comparing JSOO to BS and seem to be asking how can BS keep up? You got a response that they are two projects with two different goals, and hence they can't really be compared in the way you are comparing them. I'm not sure what's driving you crazy about this interaction.

by dmit 6y ago

jordwalke 6y ago

ReasonML is an umbrella project/sponsor for many subprojects, all of which have the goal of bringing fully type safe, fast compiling, fast executing code to the widest number of developers and today that means JavaScript developers. Many ReasonML projects support or improve upstream OCaml ecosystem. For example, package management workflows (https://esy.sh https://esy.sh), interactive repls that work with Reason syntax, and OCaml syntax (see https://sketch.sh https://sketch.sh), and many community members contribute to the developer tools (next generation language server created by OCamlLabs). Others are building CI infrastructure, and many other projects. Reason Syntax was the first entry into the ecosystem. It's not done evolving/improving, and it's just the tip of the iceberg for all the projects under the umbrella. BuckleScript has been developed with Reason users in mind. Syntax is one of the most important things when introducing a language, and one of the biggest tripping points for new people trying out OCaml so it makes sense that it would be the first entry. But it's not the last, it's not the only, and it's not finished evolving/improving.

dmit 6y ago
Thank you for taking the time to reply, Jordan, but none of what you posted is relevant to my concerns from the above two comments.
- jordwalke 6y ago
  I believe it does address part of your comments. At the very least: "And then we have the ReasonML project that has seen even less activity recently" You comment seemed to be based on the assumption that the Reason syntax is the sum total of the Reason project, and I provided examples that would adjust that frame of reference. See the high level goal I mentioned - bring fast development, fast running, fully type safe programming to the largest audience possible. Syntax is one important piece, but not everything, and it's not everything under the ReasonML project umbrella.
  - dmit 6y ago
    Ah, you're right. I did judge the Reason project by the number of commits its main repo has seen in the past year. But surely you'll agree that "fast development, fast running, fully type safe programming" has been achieved years ago, and any incremental improvements coming from the BS project are just that - incremental.
    - jordwalke 6y ago
      You forgot the most important part: "to the largest audience possible". I think that's the biggest disconnect here.

yawaramin 6y ago

There must be a misunderstanding here, maybe on my side, but I honestly can't see how BuckleScript is 'falling behind': it jumped from 4.02.3 to 4.06 fairly recently, with more upgrades planned, and there is ongoing work to make it emit JS that looks more and more hand-written. Its download count looks like hockey-stick growth: https://www.npmtrends.com/bs-platform https://www.npmtrends.com/bs-platform Look, JSOO is great but it has a very different goal from BuckleScript: letting OCamlers use the Opam ecosystem to make frontend apps without caring about bundle size. And that's great, but it's not what JavaScript developers want.

dmit 6y ago
I think you know what I mean. 4.02.3 was released in 2015. 4.06 was released in 2017. Like I said, I know the tradeoffs between JSOO and Reason. And lack of features from the past 2~3 years of OCaml development is one of them.
- yawaramin 6y ago
  Yes, if your only heuristic of 'falling behind' is 'not getting the latest OCaml features'. It turns out that even OCaml from a few years ago is perfectly usable to build an excellent JavaScript-focused compiler.
  - dmit 6y ago
    I think "getting OCaml features at a slower rate than OCaml itself does" counts as "falling behind", yes. 2015 OCaml was an excellent language. 2020 OCaml is exquisite.
    - drbojingle 6y ago
      What feature of 2020 OCaml do you think would convince JS developers to use Reason?
      - sgrove 6y ago

hongbo_zhang 6y ago

Hi, the author of BuckleScript here. JSOO and BuckleScript has very different goals, the former focuses on the compatibility with native, while the latter focuses on the interop and optimal perf on JS backend. The progress of BuckleScript is actually much faster this year if you follow the development closely. OCaml as a language which has been developed for more than 20 years is quite usable without using the latest version, our top priority is to make js interop the best, it is not to catch up the lastest release (but we do have plans to sync up once every two years).

dmit 6y ago
Please, you're driving me crazy. I have referred to you personally by name in two of my above comments. I know who you are! I also know about JSOO vs BS! I know! And it's super disorienting when every single prominent person from the Reason/BuckleScript ecosystem arrives in this thread just to reply directly to my comments with a canned message that has little to do with my original points. Yes, OCaml is older! Yes, OCaml circa 2015 is a useful language! But also, yes, OCaml has gained multiple useful features since 2015! In part because its development is driver by many, many people. And no, BuckleScript doesn't have some of those features as of May 2020! And it's not an indictment of Reason, but it is also a true statement that Reason/BS are lagging behind compared to what OCaml has to offer!
- yawaramin 6y ago
  You have half of the picture, I don't believe you have the other half, which is the progress that BuckleScript is actually making in emitting clean, readable JavaScript. Fortunately, it's rather simple to see for yourself, you just need to head over to https://reasonml.github.io/en/try.html https://reasonml.github.io/en/try.html and try out some OCaml/Reason code and see what is emitted. In fact, the playground comes with various examples built-in, if you need some sample code to try out quickly.
- wetmore 6y ago
  I'm an outsider but it appears to me that he's addressing your points. You are specifically comparing JSOO to BS and seem to be asking how can BS keep up? You got a response that they are two projects with two different goals, and hence they can't really be compared in the way you are comparing them. I'm not sure what's driving you crazy about this interaction.