7 ms·

What isn't often discussed is how hard it is to go from a no name school that isn't ranked highly to an elite school. At a non-elite school your recommenders ma

What isn't often discussed is how hard it is to go from a no name school that isn't ranked highly to an elite school. At a non-elite school your recommenders may be unknown to the admissions committee, the 'level' of education these applicants receive can be questionable ("What does an A mean from this program and how does it compare to our class?"), their research experience could be weak, student visibility could be weak (i.e. their recommender isn't known in the field, and their student didn't do any sort of research that made professors at our school aware of them in advance), the courses they take may be weak compared to other applicants (i.e. their program doesn't offer as many advanced courses, compared to other programs) and so on. There can be tremendous risk in taking students from unknown schools or non-elite schools. It's much easier to accept graduate students from a similar elite school, with well-known recommenders, and a history of successful applicants from that came from that school that did well in said program. It isn't impossible, but it is an extra step these applicants have to overcome.

downerending 6y ago
I was in this situation, decades ago, and indeed was turned down by CMU. At least back then, CMU like some other elite schools had no MSCS, making it even harder to make the grade coming from Podunk U. My strategy, which worked out okay, was to "bracket" the field by choosing a couple of schools that looked solid and had very large MS class sizes and to just view my "elite" apps as lottery tickets unlikely to pay off (which they didn't). Beyond that, and especially today, I'd look seriously at targeting specific future advisors at the schools in question, and worrying far less about the school's reputation. An excellent advisor at Mississippi State will do you far more good than a crappy one at Stanford. And will probably cost a lot less.
- glangdale 6y ago
  I think this is bad advice for most people. "An excellent advisor at Mississippi State will do you far more good than a crappy one at Stanford. And will probably cost a lot less." I applied to 6 schools - doing the "bracketing" thing (CMU+UCB as "reach" schools, Wisconsin-Madison & Washington as "mid" schools and Columbia and U Colorado Boulder as safety schools). I got into everywhere but UCB and Washington, but CMU was my first choice so I was super-happy. The thing was - there were specific people at Boulder and Columbia that I thought I wanted to work with, but I checked a couple years later out of curiosity, and they'd moved on (around the time I would have been doing a thesis proposal). My first adviser at CMU also went to industry after a couple years and I had to switch advisors and fields, but had a number of excellent choices - as top-tier schools are packed with really good people. So if your interests shift, or you are forced to have an advisor change, or you wind up working in an area with some adjacencies to your original area (say you start as a networks person but wind up doing a half-networks, half-operating system PhD) you will find good advisors and coadvisors aplenty at a good school. At an "OK" school there are usually some really good people but they may have zero good people in whole subfields, and you might find that that good academic has left before you start your PhD proper...
  - downerending 6y ago
    All worth considering, yes. I don't envy anyone having to plan a strategy on this.
throwlaplace 6y ago
easiest way to jump tiers is networking i.e. person to person conversations with PIs. if you're able to represent yourself well and describe your own research articulately and authoritatively it'll make up for a great deal of the gap between you and students from "elite" schools. unfortunately this networking happens at conferences which less resource-rich schools can't afford to send undergrads to. my hack: when you're traveling to a city with a brand name school you might be interested in attending, shoot some professors an email asking to drop by and chat about their research. they will usually tell you to come by during their office hours. this has worked for me no less than 3 times and led to 2 admissions. if you're an undergrad and you've never sold/pitched yourself to someone i strongly suggest you read some salesy stuff about how to approach a sales meeting. you have to keep in mind that PIs are kind of like CEOs of small startups - they do research, publish papers, and win grants. That's their business cycle. when they're evaluating new students they're trying to determine how effectively you'll fit into that cycle. that means if you've done all 3 of those things you're in a good position to be hired (and it is out and out hiring) but if you lack experience in one area (e.g. writing grants) you can make up for it by being strong in another (or giving the impression that you will be). ultimately you need to speak to their needs and goals rather than your own.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pxhb 6y ago
  I second this from my own experience (in physics, undergrad from a state university). I met my grad school advisor at a conference, and would definitely not have been able to get without their support.
  - throwlaplace 6y ago
    I was a physics undergrad too. At the time I thought getting into a top school was about being a genius. Now that I'm at a top school (for CS) that I got into through networking I wish someone had told me back then because I might've not given up on physics. It's almost criminal that undergrads are fed stories about needing first author papers in top tier journals and 4.0s and 990s on subject gres to get into these places.
scott_s 6y ago
I agree, mostly. A possible route is to do a Master's at a mid-tier school, making sure to do research that results in a publication. That turns you into a very strong candidate and a mid-tier Master's program is easier to get into. And you might decide to stay at that school for a PhD!
- jkhdigital 6y ago
  This is exactly what happened for me. I started an MSCS at a decent state school, took an elective course in cryptography and crushed it, and the professor basically propositioned me to switch to a PhD and fast-tracked my application. Nothing else on my weird-ass mid-career resume mattered, because I took his course and he had all the evidence he needed.
gaze 6y ago
Yeah I agree. I generally think of each professor as running their own little mafia with their own territory. The top tier professors all know each other and hang out at conferences. At a certain level, there's phone calls instead of letters of recommendation.
akhilcacharya 6y ago
I came to this conclusion junior/senior year when I was thinking of focusing on applying to grad schools. 2nd author papers and a 3.92 probably aren’t enough these days - honestly just kind of depressing to see my undergrad shut out these opportunities after hearing people say “it’s grad school that matters!” for four years.

downerending 6y ago

I was in this situation, decades ago, and indeed was turned down by CMU. At least back then, CMU like some other elite schools had no MSCS, making it even harder to make the grade coming from Podunk U. My strategy, which worked out okay, was to "bracket" the field by choosing a couple of schools that looked solid and had very large MS class sizes and to just view my "elite" apps as lottery tickets unlikely to pay off (which they didn't). Beyond that, and especially today, I'd look seriously at targeting specific future advisors at the schools in question, and worrying far less about the school's reputation. An excellent advisor at Mississippi State will do you far more good than a crappy one at Stanford. And will probably cost a lot less.

glangdale 6y ago
I think this is bad advice for most people. "An excellent advisor at Mississippi State will do you far more good than a crappy one at Stanford. And will probably cost a lot less." I applied to 6 schools - doing the "bracketing" thing (CMU+UCB as "reach" schools, Wisconsin-Madison & Washington as "mid" schools and Columbia and U Colorado Boulder as safety schools). I got into everywhere but UCB and Washington, but CMU was my first choice so I was super-happy. The thing was - there were specific people at Boulder and Columbia that I thought I wanted to work with, but I checked a couple years later out of curiosity, and they'd moved on (around the time I would have been doing a thesis proposal). My first adviser at CMU also went to industry after a couple years and I had to switch advisors and fields, but had a number of excellent choices - as top-tier schools are packed with really good people. So if your interests shift, or you are forced to have an advisor change, or you wind up working in an area with some adjacencies to your original area (say you start as a networks person but wind up doing a half-networks, half-operating system PhD) you will find good advisors and coadvisors aplenty at a good school. At an "OK" school there are usually some really good people but they may have zero good people in whole subfields, and you might find that that good academic has left before you start your PhD proper...
- downerending 6y ago
  All worth considering, yes. I don't envy anyone having to plan a strategy on this.

throwlaplace 6y ago

easiest way to jump tiers is networking i.e. person to person conversations with PIs. if you're able to represent yourself well and describe your own research articulately and authoritatively it'll make up for a great deal of the gap between you and students from "elite" schools. unfortunately this networking happens at conferences which less resource-rich schools can't afford to send undergrads to. my hack: when you're traveling to a city with a brand name school you might be interested in attending, shoot some professors an email asking to drop by and chat about their research. they will usually tell you to come by during their office hours. this has worked for me no less than 3 times and led to 2 admissions. if you're an undergrad and you've never sold/pitched yourself to someone i strongly suggest you read some salesy stuff about how to approach a sales meeting. you have to keep in mind that PIs are kind of like CEOs of small startups - they do research, publish papers, and win grants. That's their business cycle. when they're evaluating new students they're trying to determine how effectively you'll fit into that cycle. that means if you've done all 3 of those things you're in a good position to be hired (and it is out and out hiring) but if you lack experience in one area (e.g. writing grants) you can make up for it by being strong in another (or giving the impression that you will be). ultimately you need to speak to their needs and goals rather than your own.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pxhb 6y ago
I second this from my own experience (in physics, undergrad from a state university). I met my grad school advisor at a conference, and would definitely not have been able to get without their support.
- throwlaplace 6y ago
  I was a physics undergrad too. At the time I thought getting into a top school was about being a genius. Now that I'm at a top school (for CS) that I got into through networking I wish someone had told me back then because I might've not given up on physics. It's almost criminal that undergrads are fed stories about needing first author papers in top tier journals and 4.0s and 990s on subject gres to get into these places.

scott_s 6y ago

I agree, mostly. A possible route is to do a Master's at a mid-tier school, making sure to do research that results in a publication. That turns you into a very strong candidate and a mid-tier Master's program is easier to get into. And you might decide to stay at that school for a PhD!

jkhdigital 6y ago
This is exactly what happened for me. I started an MSCS at a decent state school, took an elective course in cryptography and crushed it, and the professor basically propositioned me to switch to a PhD and fast-tracked my application. Nothing else on my weird-ass mid-career resume mattered, because I took his course and he had all the evidence he needed.

gaze 6y ago

Yeah I agree. I generally think of each professor as running their own little mafia with their own territory. The top tier professors all know each other and hang out at conferences. At a certain level, there's phone calls instead of letters of recommendation.

akhilcacharya 6y ago

I came to this conclusion junior/senior year when I was thinking of focusing on applying to grad schools. 2nd author papers and a 3.92 probably aren’t enough these days - honestly just kind of depressing to see my undergrad shut out these opportunities after hearing people say “it’s grad school that matters!” for four years.