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As a practical matter I'm not worried about clicking a link that's been clicked tens of thousands of times today. There's enough ambiguous laws they could like

As a practical matter I'm not worried about clicking a link that's been clicked tens of thousands of times today. There's enough ambiguous laws they could likely come after anyone who accesses it if they wanted but given the facts of the situation I doubt they'd be able to make anything stick and it would be a giant PR snafu.

ashtonkem 6y ago
I believe there is precedent that you’re allowed to enter any computer system until you’re specifically warned. It’s a bit like traveling through open land, you can’t get in trouble for trespassing until you’ve been warned that you’re entering private property. IANAL.
- akersten 6y ago
  > I believe there is precedent that you’re allowed to enter any computer system until you’re specifically warned. Didn't work that well for weev
- bityard 6y ago
  Absolutely untrue. In the US, the law is written such that you may only legally access a system that you own or have explicit authorization from the owner to access. It mirrors common law where you're not generally allowed to enter someone else's home even if they leave the door unlocked. You can, of course (and plenty of people do), debate the specific application of the word, "access" in the context of computer networks.
  - 101404 6y ago
    So accessing a web site is illegal? I rarely see explicit "you are allowed to access the HTML files on this server" anywhere.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      It can be if it was not intended to be public. It's really not much different than walking around outside. You can walk in an unlocked retail store and it's okay, but if you walk into your neighbors bedroom it's not okay.
      - da_chicken 6y ago
        Yes, and opening an unlocked door will still qualify as breaking and entering if you don't have permission to enter it. Just like taking something that isn't yours is still theft even if you find it in a public space. The crime isn't circumventing the locks. It's accessing what you don't have the right to access.
      - tptacek 6y ago
        People on message boards really want to believe there's a black -letter rule about what you can and can't do, but that's not how our criminal codes work. These cases will come down to the state of mind of the person accessing the website, as well as an argument about what a reasonable person would conclude upon reading what's on that website.
        eloff 6y ago
        I think programmers especially like to view law through the lens of rules they could implement in code. Often they think it can be hacked by violating the spirit of the law while upholding the letter. Law in reality is a much more human thing that takes into account intention on the party of both legislators making the law and the people it is being applied to. Good thing too. Is this that makes me think attempts to codify law on some blockchain is a doomed exercise most of the time.
        derefr 6y ago
        I think some programmers try to think in the mindset of what laws would/wouldn't be violated if you could somehow fuzz-test a particular aspect of the court system. I.e., if instead of an individual case, you could generate a million people who all tried to do every potential variation of breaking the law in that way, then what would the curve of the resulting judgements look like?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
elicash 6y ago
What about panning the camera to the right when there just may happen to be a drug deal you didn't notice happening to the left? I'm not telling people what to do or not do. Only expressing my own fear!
syshum 6y ago
>> I doubt they'd be able to make anything stick and it would be a giant PR snafu. Both of those are true, however your life would still be massivly impacted and you would still be out thousands of dollars in legal fees with almost no hope of collecting them Also better hope they do not find any other things in your life to charge you with, and you do not respond to any question in a way that could be seen as a lie, or about 100 other ways a federal agent can fuck you. No it is best to simply avoid the system instead of putting your faith that "everything will work out in the end" The only people that win in criminal cases are the courts, law enforcement, and the lawyers. as even if you "win" you lose
- duxup 6y ago
  In theory your life could be massively impacted at random by such organizations, that's just how the justice system works. I think the risk here is very very low to consider such a wildcard situation.

ashtonkem 6y ago

I believe there is precedent that you’re allowed to enter any computer system until you’re specifically warned. It’s a bit like traveling through open land, you can’t get in trouble for trespassing until you’ve been warned that you’re entering private property. IANAL.

akersten 6y ago
> I believe there is precedent that you’re allowed to enter any computer system until you’re specifically warned. Didn't work that well for weev
bityard 6y ago
Absolutely untrue. In the US, the law is written such that you may only legally access a system that you own or have explicit authorization from the owner to access. It mirrors common law where you're not generally allowed to enter someone else's home even if they leave the door unlocked. You can, of course (and plenty of people do), debate the specific application of the word, "access" in the context of computer networks.
- 101404 6y ago
  So accessing a web site is illegal? I rarely see explicit "you are allowed to access the HTML files on this server" anywhere.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    It can be if it was not intended to be public. It's really not much different than walking around outside. You can walk in an unlocked retail store and it's okay, but if you walk into your neighbors bedroom it's not okay.
    - da_chicken 6y ago
      Yes, and opening an unlocked door will still qualify as breaking and entering if you don't have permission to enter it. Just like taking something that isn't yours is still theft even if you find it in a public space. The crime isn't circumventing the locks. It's accessing what you don't have the right to access.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      People on message boards really want to believe there's a black -letter rule about what you can and can't do, but that's not how our criminal codes work. These cases will come down to the state of mind of the person accessing the website, as well as an argument about what a reasonable person would conclude upon reading what's on that website.
      - eloff 6y ago
        I think programmers especially like to view law through the lens of rules they could implement in code. Often they think it can be hacked by violating the spirit of the law while upholding the letter. Law in reality is a much more human thing that takes into account intention on the party of both legislators making the law and the people it is being applied to. Good thing too. Is this that makes me think attempts to codify law on some blockchain is a doomed exercise most of the time.
        derefr 6y ago
        I think some programmers try to think in the mindset of what laws would/wouldn't be violated if you could somehow fuzz-test a particular aspect of the court system. I.e., if instead of an individual case, you could generate a million people who all tried to do every potential variation of breaking the law in that way, then what would the curve of the resulting judgements look like?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

elicash 6y ago

What about panning the camera to the right when there just may happen to be a drug deal you didn't notice happening to the left? I'm not telling people what to do or not do. Only expressing my own fear!

syshum 6y ago

>> I doubt they'd be able to make anything stick and it would be a giant PR snafu. Both of those are true, however your life would still be massivly impacted and you would still be out thousands of dollars in legal fees with almost no hope of collecting them Also better hope they do not find any other things in your life to charge you with, and you do not respond to any question in a way that could be seen as a lie, or about 100 other ways a federal agent can fuck you. No it is best to simply avoid the system instead of putting your faith that "everything will work out in the end" The only people that win in criminal cases are the courts, law enforcement, and the lawyers. as even if you "win" you lose

duxup 6y ago
In theory your life could be massively impacted at random by such organizations, that's just how the justice system works. I think the risk here is very very low to consider such a wildcard situation.