4 ms·

Government overreach is dangerous too. His pushing back on this is appropriate. Also worth noting that he got support from government officials, including the

by Reedx 6y ago

Government overreach is dangerous too. His pushing back on this is appropriate. Also worth noting that he got support from government officials, including the state governor.

drewrv 6y ago
He's not a freedom fighter sticking up for oppressed minorities here. He's a billionaire who is endangering his employees to make even more money. His employees are in a really bad situation right now, they get to choose between risking their livelihood or their health. He's forcing them to make this decision.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  This is false. Tesla's startup plan specifically states employees who choose to remain at home will not be penalized for doing so. If you do choose to return to Fremont, PPE will be provided and social distancing measures will be enforced. These measure were implemented and tested at the Shanghai Gigafactory. https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf?redirect=no https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T... (Warning: PDF)
  - tfehring 6y ago
    They might not be penalized by Tesla directly or explicitly, but will they lose access to unemployment benefits if they have the opportunity to go back to work but elect not to? (This is a sincere question, I don't know the answer and wasn't immediately able to find one.)
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      It depends heavily on the interpretation of the CARES stimulus act [1], which provides requirements and guidance under what circumstances allow for unemployment benefits beyond the typical loss of employment. For example, if you are required to quarantine, are sick yourself from COVID, or need to provide care for someone else, you're eligible [2]. If this is a gap, it requires a legislative and fiscal policy fix. [1] https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.pdf https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.p... (Warning: PDF) [2] https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package-questions-answers.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... (Control-f "Unemployment Benefits")
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    > If you do choose to return to Fremont, PPE will be provided and social distancing measures will be enforced This doesn't match what the workers themselves are saying: https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21254871/tesla-fremont-shutdown-factory-production-model-3-y-elon-musk https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21254871/tesla-fremont-sh... https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/12/21256665/tesla-reopens-nevada-gigafactory-after-california-factory https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/12/21256665/tesla-reopens-ne... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/12/tesla-workers-unemployment-benefits-emails https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/12/tesla-wor... > These measure were implemented and tested at the Shanghai Gigafactory It's interesting. Elon's been keen on tweeting about American freedoms lately. I wonder when he'll do the same for Chinese freedoms.
clouddrover 6y ago
> Government overreach is dangerous too. SpaceX is currently asking for government handouts: https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-05-12/spacex-musk-california https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-05-12/spacex-mus... There's no honest fight for truth, justice, and the American way in anything Elon is doing. It's just a company trying to get what it can and give as little as possible back. Socialize the costs, privatize the profits.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  How is SpaceX asking for economic support, minimal economic support (only $600k!?), not reasonable because Tesla pushed back against unreasonable county regulation by Alameda County? Did we forget the Federal Reserve is dumping hundreds of billions of dollars into the bond markets to prop up Boeing [1], Ford [2], and other exceptionally poorly run entrenched businesses who were lucky enough to have large amounts of debt issued? [1] https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/the-non-bailout-how-the-fed-saved-boeing-without-paying-a-dime https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/the-non-bailout-how-... [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/surging-ford-bonds-lead-credit-143711446.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/surging-ford-bonds-lead-credi...
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    How much twitter drama has Ford indulged in lately? Elon whining about public health measures being "fascist", threatening to leave California, and then going cap in hand for more public money from the state he claims is limiting his "freedoms" is not just a bad joke, it's farcical.
    - ta999999171 6y ago
      I don't feel this addresses your parent's point.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      The benchmark is results, not your public image. Where is Boeing's Crew Dragon/Falcon Heavy/Reusable Falcon 9/StarLink constellation? Where is Ford's EV manufacturing capacity and charger network? When you are an innovator, you get some latitude to shit post. The public may not look fondly upon your antics, but shareholders have stood behind Musk (and if results continue, will likely continue to do so). California needs Tesla and SpaceX more than they need California. The rest of the world (China, Germany for Gigafactories, several countries have begged for one), and other states (Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, and Colorado all have incentives to Tesla on offer), have shown they're willing to accommodate. No one is rushing to do the same for failing behemoths such as Boeing and Ford (both of whom are performing substantial layoffs, [1] [2]). There is a balance to be struck between operational flexibility and public safety. IMHO, Alameda County overreached. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23021873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23021873 [2] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/02/11/ford-f11.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/02/11/ford-f11.html
shakkhar 6y ago
Only someone like Elon Musk could have done this. If you or I pull a stunt like this, we'll just be thrown in jail and forgotten. So I think it's appropriate that he did it with a bit of flare.

by Reedx 6y ago

Government overreach is dangerous too. His pushing back on this is appropriate. Also worth noting that he got support from government officials, including the state governor.

drewrv 6y ago

He's not a freedom fighter sticking up for oppressed minorities here. He's a billionaire who is endangering his employees to make even more money. His employees are in a really bad situation right now, they get to choose between risking their livelihood or their health. He's forcing them to make this decision.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
This is false. Tesla's startup plan specifically states employees who choose to remain at home will not be penalized for doing so. If you do choose to return to Fremont, PPE will be provided and social distancing measures will be enforced. These measure were implemented and tested at the Shanghai Gigafactory. https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf?redirect=no https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T... (Warning: PDF)
- tfehring 6y ago
  They might not be penalized by Tesla directly or explicitly, but will they lose access to unemployment benefits if they have the opportunity to go back to work but elect not to? (This is a sincere question, I don't know the answer and wasn't immediately able to find one.)
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    It depends heavily on the interpretation of the CARES stimulus act [1], which provides requirements and guidance under what circumstances allow for unemployment benefits beyond the typical loss of employment. For example, if you are required to quarantine, are sick yourself from COVID, or need to provide care for someone else, you're eligible [2]. If this is a gap, it requires a legislative and fiscal policy fix. [1] https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.pdf https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.p... (Warning: PDF) [2] https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package-questions-answers.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... (Control-f "Unemployment Benefits")
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > If you do choose to return to Fremont, PPE will be provided and social distancing measures will be enforced This doesn't match what the workers themselves are saying: https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21254871/tesla-fremont-shutdown-factory-production-model-3-y-elon-musk https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21254871/tesla-fremont-sh... https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/12/21256665/tesla-reopens-nevada-gigafactory-after-california-factory https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/12/21256665/tesla-reopens-ne... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/12/tesla-workers-unemployment-benefits-emails https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/12/tesla-wor... > These measure were implemented and tested at the Shanghai Gigafactory It's interesting. Elon's been keen on tweeting about American freedoms lately. I wonder when he'll do the same for Chinese freedoms.

clouddrover 6y ago

> Government overreach is dangerous too. SpaceX is currently asking for government handouts: https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-05-12/spacex-musk-california https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-05-12/spacex-mus... There's no honest fight for truth, justice, and the American way in anything Elon is doing. It's just a company trying to get what it can and give as little as possible back. Socialize the costs, privatize the profits.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
How is SpaceX asking for economic support, minimal economic support (only $600k!?), not reasonable because Tesla pushed back against unreasonable county regulation by Alameda County? Did we forget the Federal Reserve is dumping hundreds of billions of dollars into the bond markets to prop up Boeing [1], Ford [2], and other exceptionally poorly run entrenched businesses who were lucky enough to have large amounts of debt issued? [1] https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/the-non-bailout-how-the-fed-saved-boeing-without-paying-a-dime https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/the-non-bailout-how-... [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/surging-ford-bonds-lead-credit-143711446.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/surging-ford-bonds-lead-credi...
- clouddrover 6y ago
  How much twitter drama has Ford indulged in lately? Elon whining about public health measures being "fascist", threatening to leave California, and then going cap in hand for more public money from the state he claims is limiting his "freedoms" is not just a bad joke, it's farcical.
  - ta999999171 6y ago
    I don't feel this addresses your parent's point.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    The benchmark is results, not your public image. Where is Boeing's Crew Dragon/Falcon Heavy/Reusable Falcon 9/StarLink constellation? Where is Ford's EV manufacturing capacity and charger network? When you are an innovator, you get some latitude to shit post. The public may not look fondly upon your antics, but shareholders have stood behind Musk (and if results continue, will likely continue to do so). California needs Tesla and SpaceX more than they need California. The rest of the world (China, Germany for Gigafactories, several countries have begged for one), and other states (Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, and Colorado all have incentives to Tesla on offer), have shown they're willing to accommodate. No one is rushing to do the same for failing behemoths such as Boeing and Ford (both of whom are performing substantial layoffs, [1] [2]). There is a balance to be struck between operational flexibility and public safety. IMHO, Alameda County overreached. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23021873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23021873 [2] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/02/11/ford-f11.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/02/11/ford-f11.html

shakkhar 6y ago

Only someone like Elon Musk could have done this. If you or I pull a stunt like this, we'll just be thrown in jail and forgotten. So I think it's appropriate that he did it with a bit of flare.