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> "think of the poor rentseekers" There's a pervasive culture in the US right now around "but think of the businesses" that you see pushed by lots of folks sma

> "think of the poor rentseekers" There's a pervasive culture in the US right now around "but think of the businesses" that you see pushed by lots of folks small and large. As someone who launched a product in February which has struggled due to COVID, it would seem SO tone-deaf of me to go out and say stuff like "think about the business owners!" when people are losing their jobs, not able to make bills, and all while facing a very serious and deadly disease. An example of this is, "keep going to your favorite restaurants because they're sure to be hurting!" Excuse me, but due to having more time at home + having my financial anxiety/risks dialed up I'll be cooking as much as I possibly can. Sorry for the rant but this is a time we should be putting people first. I find the whole "but think of the businesses!" narrative to be horribly tone deaf when people are unemployed in record numbers with infection/death rates that are continuing to go up. Warning: I'm also pretty biased here towards rent seekers too because last month the electrical panel to my apartment building caught on fire and the landlord has been doing everything in their power to put the hurt on us to the point that I've had to lawyer up. They're doing stuff without permits from the city, have had issues with inspectors, have lied to us saying it's an "act of god", they're claiming a non-powered unit is habitable, etc. We're in the process of moving out and things are OK as we're with family. Honestly, I picked a lower-monthly-rent apartment to work on my startup and this is all really my fault for trying to live below my means.

lobotryas 6y ago
How do you not see that businesses are run by people too? If their business suffers (rental or otherwise) they suffer just like you would if you were laid off.
- folkhack 6y ago
  Simply put - I don't expect anyone to care about my business struggles when we are in the middle of a pandemic. I'd rather people look out for themselves vs. putting out marketing copy that's just a weird ask for sympathy/charity when I am aware everyone is suffering.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > How do you not see that businesses are run by people too? If their business suffers (rental or otherwise) they suffer just like you would if you were laid off. So are dictatorships. The fact that Kim Jong Un is a person is not enough to make me sympathetic to his troubles. A lot more context is required to figure out if one should be sympathetic or not to a businessman's situation. But, as a rule of thumb, I'd say business owners are due less sympathy than your typical working man. At a minimum they have far more capital than a typical person has, which usually means they have far more income, too.
anticsapp 6y ago
If it brightens your day your product looks cool.
pradn 6y ago
Businesses are a mix of a bunch of things at once: organizations that provide employment (and so, wages, that people need to live + taxes to the government + spending power for downstream businesses), organizations that pay taxes to the government directly, assets that generate returns to owners, productive capacity for goods (some are essential, some are not, and some are essential for national security), centers of research and development (powering innovation that may improve people's lives), social associations (providing structure and community to the people that work there), culturally relevant institutions (think a locally famous restaurant or factory - Katz's Deli or Tennessee Whiskey) and many more. So, when a politician wants to pass a bill to help certain businesses, you have to ask which of these are they SAYING they want to improve, and which of these they ACTUALLY improve. If you pass a bill that reduces taxes for capital gains, it's usually proposed as a way to produce more jobs (more capital available for investment), but it may mostly be adding to the returns one enjoys from ownership (in an economy where capital is abundant.) The opposite might be true if the economy is capital-starved. As far as businesses go, land-ownership and management is clearly rent-seeking, and an unproductive use of capital. Human society doesn't gain new products or services or save labor by the mere increase of land prices. If anything, as we see with the homelessness crisis, it can be totally counterproductive. Using my rubric above, landlords aren't providing many of the benefits of a business (no R&D, not many jobs), so they should be lower on the ladder of businesses worth saving. I would much rather support the bailout of a restaurant with a long history than a landlord. After all, if returns the fruits of risk taking, losses must be the fruits of losing those bets.
caseysoftware 6y ago
While you're experiencing that financial anxiety/risk, it's fractal and hitting everyone to different degrees. For people who can order from their favorite restaurants, coffee shops, etc, they should be encouraged. For the buyer, it makes them feel good supporting their local economy instead of just Amazon. For the small business owner, it increases the odds that they'll make it. For the employee, a more stable job/employer reduces their financial anxiety/risk aka fear in that area. A good chunk of the economy is based on confidence. Ordering from restaurants doesn't solve problems directly but may give people a fighting chance. And I'm sorry for your shitty landlord. I hope karma, your lawyer, and the law hammer him.
- folkhack 6y ago
  Totally agree with your statement and frankly - it's just one of those things that is multi-faceted. I would say that those who are well off and capable of buying luxury/service products should probably dial it back too but that's just my frugal "I'm in a crisis" brain speaking! > I hope karma, your lawyer, and the law hammer him. It's a her. Also they'll get off with a minimal amount of fees with the city and that's about it. Courts are shut down indefinitely etc. and with a pay-to-play legal system where representation costs me $350/hr they're just throwing up smokescreens and telling us "take us to court". They'll get away with everything in this circumstance because by the time I'd see ANY money back I'll already be in the hole. Would we win? Maybe... but man is that one heck of a risk/liability. The deposit, etc. are all moot, and so are the current legal fees - I knew this from day #1 as multiple lawyers wouldn't touch it knowing it was not profitable for me as the client. I still decided to get a lawyer in this circumstance because I need to protect myself for the rent that they're trying to collect in regards to the unit being not habitable. Basically I needed to get representation so that if/when they inevitably harass me with collections or attempt an eviction while we're moving out I'm ahead of the ball with a fully documented case. Hopefully I deter from these threats by showing them I can afford an attorney + document + work with the city... All-in-all I'm out thousands, displaced with family, and as a 1099 contractor no other landlords want to touch me due to COVID and increased risk on their behalf for someone without a W2 + 6 months of employment history. We're looking at having to pre-pay 3-6 months worth of rent + deposit upfront for even the crappy places to take us... Wooooo =(
mindslight 6y ago
> I picked a lower-monthly-rent apartment to work on my startup and this is all really my fault for trying to live below my means. Better you, having the means to lawyer up and even outright move, than someone else living "at their means" (aka stretched thin) who would have no choice but to just take the abuse. FWIW swapping in a new residential service panel is basically a one day job. Your situation doesn't sound like the result of greed, but rather outright stupidity.
- folkhack 6y ago
  > than someone else living "at their means" (aka stretched thin) who would have no choice but to just take the abuse Yep - due to it being a lower-rent complex I feel for the people who have been living there for over a month without power. Lots of those folks have nowhere to go... it's just freakin' horrible what they're doing and how they're treating people =( It's also greed - they've been awful to us through this entire thing outright lying to our face trying to get it pinned on our rental insurance. Then the fact that they were doing all of this without permits from the city... oof. Thanks for this though - I definitely need to hear it.

lobotryas 6y ago

How do you not see that businesses are run by people too? If their business suffers (rental or otherwise) they suffer just like you would if you were laid off.

folkhack 6y ago
Simply put - I don't expect anyone to care about my business struggles when we are in the middle of a pandemic. I'd rather people look out for themselves vs. putting out marketing copy that's just a weird ask for sympathy/charity when I am aware everyone is suffering.
ardy42 6y ago
> How do you not see that businesses are run by people too? If their business suffers (rental or otherwise) they suffer just like you would if you were laid off. So are dictatorships. The fact that Kim Jong Un is a person is not enough to make me sympathetic to his troubles. A lot more context is required to figure out if one should be sympathetic or not to a businessman's situation. But, as a rule of thumb, I'd say business owners are due less sympathy than your typical working man. At a minimum they have far more capital than a typical person has, which usually means they have far more income, too.

anticsapp 6y ago

If it brightens your day your product looks cool.

pradn 6y ago

Businesses are a mix of a bunch of things at once: organizations that provide employment (and so, wages, that people need to live + taxes to the government + spending power for downstream businesses), organizations that pay taxes to the government directly, assets that generate returns to owners, productive capacity for goods (some are essential, some are not, and some are essential for national security), centers of research and development (powering innovation that may improve people's lives), social associations (providing structure and community to the people that work there), culturally relevant institutions (think a locally famous restaurant or factory - Katz's Deli or Tennessee Whiskey) and many more. So, when a politician wants to pass a bill to help certain businesses, you have to ask which of these are they SAYING they want to improve, and which of these they ACTUALLY improve. If you pass a bill that reduces taxes for capital gains, it's usually proposed as a way to produce more jobs (more capital available for investment), but it may mostly be adding to the returns one enjoys from ownership (in an economy where capital is abundant.) The opposite might be true if the economy is capital-starved. As far as businesses go, land-ownership and management is clearly rent-seeking, and an unproductive use of capital. Human society doesn't gain new products or services or save labor by the mere increase of land prices. If anything, as we see with the homelessness crisis, it can be totally counterproductive. Using my rubric above, landlords aren't providing many of the benefits of a business (no R&D, not many jobs), so they should be lower on the ladder of businesses worth saving. I would much rather support the bailout of a restaurant with a long history than a landlord. After all, if returns the fruits of risk taking, losses must be the fruits of losing those bets.

caseysoftware 6y ago

While you're experiencing that financial anxiety/risk, it's fractal and hitting everyone to different degrees. For people who can order from their favorite restaurants, coffee shops, etc, they should be encouraged. For the buyer, it makes them feel good supporting their local economy instead of just Amazon. For the small business owner, it increases the odds that they'll make it. For the employee, a more stable job/employer reduces their financial anxiety/risk aka fear in that area. A good chunk of the economy is based on confidence. Ordering from restaurants doesn't solve problems directly but may give people a fighting chance. And I'm sorry for your shitty landlord. I hope karma, your lawyer, and the law hammer him.

folkhack 6y ago
Totally agree with your statement and frankly - it's just one of those things that is multi-faceted. I would say that those who are well off and capable of buying luxury/service products should probably dial it back too but that's just my frugal "I'm in a crisis" brain speaking! > I hope karma, your lawyer, and the law hammer him. It's a her. Also they'll get off with a minimal amount of fees with the city and that's about it. Courts are shut down indefinitely etc. and with a pay-to-play legal system where representation costs me $350/hr they're just throwing up smokescreens and telling us "take us to court". They'll get away with everything in this circumstance because by the time I'd see ANY money back I'll already be in the hole. Would we win? Maybe... but man is that one heck of a risk/liability. The deposit, etc. are all moot, and so are the current legal fees - I knew this from day #1 as multiple lawyers wouldn't touch it knowing it was not profitable for me as the client. I still decided to get a lawyer in this circumstance because I need to protect myself for the rent that they're trying to collect in regards to the unit being not habitable. Basically I needed to get representation so that if/when they inevitably harass me with collections or attempt an eviction while we're moving out I'm ahead of the ball with a fully documented case. Hopefully I deter from these threats by showing them I can afford an attorney + document + work with the city... All-in-all I'm out thousands, displaced with family, and as a 1099 contractor no other landlords want to touch me due to COVID and increased risk on their behalf for someone without a W2 + 6 months of employment history. We're looking at having to pre-pay 3-6 months worth of rent + deposit upfront for even the crappy places to take us... Wooooo =(

mindslight 6y ago

> I picked a lower-monthly-rent apartment to work on my startup and this is all really my fault for trying to live below my means. Better you, having the means to lawyer up and even outright move, than someone else living "at their means" (aka stretched thin) who would have no choice but to just take the abuse. FWIW swapping in a new residential service panel is basically a one day job. Your situation doesn't sound like the result of greed, but rather outright stupidity.

folkhack 6y ago
> than someone else living "at their means" (aka stretched thin) who would have no choice but to just take the abuse Yep - due to it being a lower-rent complex I feel for the people who have been living there for over a month without power. Lots of those folks have nowhere to go... it's just freakin' horrible what they're doing and how they're treating people =( It's also greed - they've been awful to us through this entire thing outright lying to our face trying to get it pinned on our rental insurance. Then the fact that they were doing all of this without permits from the city... oof. Thanks for this though - I definitely need to hear it.