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I appreciate Musk being upset at Alameda county being more conservative in reopening then the state of California, the way he approached it really upset me. The

I appreciate Musk being upset at Alameda county being more conservative in reopening then the state of California, the way he approached it really upset me. The "we'll open in defiance to authorities" approach was wrong and supports a dangerous narrative in the United States (and presumably elsewhere) regarding the response to the pandemic. More generally, I find the "we'll just ignore laws we find inconvenient and disagree with" approach a lot of SV (Uber springs to mind) or SV derived companies have taken discomforting. Rule of law is important and defiance should be reserved for true injustice, not self-enrichment.

rogerkirkness 6y ago
Musk is clearly on the rule of law side. County admin dumb dumbs are not about the law, they're about compliance.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dragontamer 6y ago
What Elon Musk has proven above all else... is how little powers local counties / local municipalities truly have in these situations. In most cases, the counties compete against each other, trying to host bigger and more expensive companies within them. Amazon proved the model when they were competing in 20+ cities for HQ2... and all the cities tried to offer lower and lower taxes to Amazon. Same thing here. Tesla just makes a few threats about leaving the county, and then the county capitulates. Ultimately, these companies have the power to change the counties that host them. Even in open defiance of the law.
Reedx 6y ago
Government overreach is dangerous too. His pushing back on this is appropriate. Also worth noting that he got support from government officials, including the state governor.
- drewrv 6y ago
  He's not a freedom fighter sticking up for oppressed minorities here. He's a billionaire who is endangering his employees to make even more money. His employees are in a really bad situation right now, they get to choose between risking their livelihood or their health. He's forcing them to make this decision.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    This is false. Tesla's startup plan specifically states employees who choose to remain at home will not be penalized for doing so. If you do choose to return to Fremont, PPE will be provided and social distancing measures will be enforced. These measure were implemented and tested at the Shanghai Gigafactory. https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf?redirect=no https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T... (Warning: PDF)
    - tfehring 6y ago
      They might not be penalized by Tesla directly or explicitly, but will they lose access to unemployment benefits if they have the opportunity to go back to work but elect not to? (This is a sincere question, I don't know the answer and wasn't immediately able to find one.)
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        It depends heavily on the interpretation of the CARES stimulus act [1], which provides requirements and guidance under what circumstances allow for unemployment benefits beyond the typical loss of employment. For example, if you are required to quarantine, are sick yourself from COVID, or need to provide care for someone else, you're eligible [2]. If this is a gap, it requires a legislative and fiscal policy fix. [1] https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.pdf https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.p... (Warning: PDF) [2] https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package-questions-answers.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... (Control-f "Unemployment Benefits")
malandrew 6y ago
> Rule of law is important It is. But it's also important that the rule of law not become tyrannical and oppressive. This is all the more reason that it's very important to put many checks and balances and deadlocks in the legislative process to greatly limit the degree to which it can become tyrannical. Preventing tyranny is a key prerequisite to getting members of society to respect the rule of law.
lazyjones 6y ago
> I find the "we'll just ignore laws we find inconvenient and disagree with" If the laws were just inconvenient, Alameda wouldn't have given in. They are wrong and destructive and there's little reason for them other than putting authorities in a cosy spot (lockdown means nobody can blame authorities for casualties) while everyone else has to suffer. It's stunning though how many people will just switch off their brains and chime in with the fearmongering when they get scared and instinctively turn to authorities for help, rationalizing their measures, however meaningless they may be.
ponsin 6y ago
> Rule of law is important I find it hard to blame the citizens of Alameda for not respecting the rule of law when Alameda brags about being a sanctuary city.

rogerkirkness 6y ago

Musk is clearly on the rule of law side. County admin dumb dumbs are not about the law, they're about compliance.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dragontamer 6y ago

What Elon Musk has proven above all else... is how little powers local counties / local municipalities truly have in these situations. In most cases, the counties compete against each other, trying to host bigger and more expensive companies within them. Amazon proved the model when they were competing in 20+ cities for HQ2... and all the cities tried to offer lower and lower taxes to Amazon. Same thing here. Tesla just makes a few threats about leaving the county, and then the county capitulates. Ultimately, these companies have the power to change the counties that host them. Even in open defiance of the law.

Reedx 6y ago

Government overreach is dangerous too. His pushing back on this is appropriate. Also worth noting that he got support from government officials, including the state governor.

drewrv 6y ago
He's not a freedom fighter sticking up for oppressed minorities here. He's a billionaire who is endangering his employees to make even more money. His employees are in a really bad situation right now, they get to choose between risking their livelihood or their health. He's forcing them to make this decision.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  This is false. Tesla's startup plan specifically states employees who choose to remain at home will not be penalized for doing so. If you do choose to return to Fremont, PPE will be provided and social distancing measures will be enforced. These measure were implemented and tested at the Shanghai Gigafactory. https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf?redirect=no https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T... (Warning: PDF)
  - tfehring 6y ago
    They might not be penalized by Tesla directly or explicitly, but will they lose access to unemployment benefits if they have the opportunity to go back to work but elect not to? (This is a sincere question, I don't know the answer and wasn't immediately able to find one.)
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      It depends heavily on the interpretation of the CARES stimulus act [1], which provides requirements and guidance under what circumstances allow for unemployment benefits beyond the typical loss of employment. For example, if you are required to quarantine, are sick yourself from COVID, or need to provide care for someone else, you're eligible [2]. If this is a gap, it requires a legislative and fiscal policy fix. [1] https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.pdf https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.p... (Warning: PDF) [2] https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package-questions-answers.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... (Control-f "Unemployment Benefits")

malandrew 6y ago

> Rule of law is important It is. But it's also important that the rule of law not become tyrannical and oppressive. This is all the more reason that it's very important to put many checks and balances and deadlocks in the legislative process to greatly limit the degree to which it can become tyrannical. Preventing tyranny is a key prerequisite to getting members of society to respect the rule of law.

lazyjones 6y ago

> I find the "we'll just ignore laws we find inconvenient and disagree with" If the laws were just inconvenient, Alameda wouldn't have given in. They are wrong and destructive and there's little reason for them other than putting authorities in a cosy spot (lockdown means nobody can blame authorities for casualties) while everyone else has to suffer. It's stunning though how many people will just switch off their brains and chime in with the fearmongering when they get scared and instinctively turn to authorities for help, rationalizing their measures, however meaningless they may be.

ponsin 6y ago

> Rule of law is important I find it hard to blame the citizens of Alameda for not respecting the rule of law when Alameda brags about being a sanctuary city.