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Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years. Just one. TX costs have been less than they

Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years. Just one. TX costs have been less than they have for several years now; I personally just made a 3sat/byte tx and it cleared the mempool in less than a hour: I would have one lower but that was the least I could make it. And that was with a sub $1 tx I just wanted to play with to test what it was leading up the halvening. Try doing that with VISA or MC and not have to pay absurd fees for the 'privilege.' 1MB blocksize is a feature, not a bug. I won't explain why, but I'll answer any questions you may have about why that is, if you want. LN already has use cases, but I agree it was sold as a panacea just 'around the corner,' but the truth is the mainnet network remains uncongested and operational. So it achieved its primary purpose, the rest will come in time and Lightening Labs got more funding from Dorsey so I'm confident progress remains as it has been: unannounced and to very little fanfare unless you work on it. Lastly, let's not forget how you can literately move $Billions [1] for pennies with no middle men, or the need to have to be some high net-worth oligarch or Arab Shriek to get a bank to do so. > ...but the vast majority of transactions do not need this. It's almost like many of you want to be survailed with this kind of thinking, it almost makes me not want to blame the NSA for doing what they have. I won't even attempt to change your mind about that, but let just say that good OPSEC is perhaps more valuable than it ever has been in our interconnected, digital Life and I only see it being more with time. Data has been the new currency for how long and you still can't see writing on the wall? 1: https://bitcoinnews.com/news/1-1-billion-transaction-among-the-largest-bitcoin-transaction-in-history-sent-for-just-68-cents-in-fees/ https://bitcoinnews.com/news/1-1-billion-transaction-among-t...

paulgb 6y ago
> Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years Is payment network downtime a real pain point of merchants? I can't remember being inconvenienced by a full payment network outage in the last decade. I've encountered issues where the connection between the merchant and payment service was unavailable, but paying with Bitcoin wouldn't alleviate those issues. > It's almost like many of you want to be survailed with this kind of thinking, it almost makes me not want to blame the NSA for doing what they have. Or, I think that the NSA are nearly as able to trace a US-based Bitcoin transaction if so motivated.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Is payment network downtime a real pain point of merchants? I can't remember being inconvenienced by a full payment network outage in the last decade... Very, and it shows you're not a merchant. Thus, not really my demographic so any argument I make will be seen as 'irrelevant' to you or anyone like you. Loss of business due to network failures, or outright denial of services, is a critical usecase for anyone dealing in high volume low margin transactions for goods and services. Especially for one based on e-commerce which is out-stripping brick and mortars these days in case you haven't noticed. > Or, I think that the NSA are nearly as able to trace a US-based Bitcoin transaction if so motivated. Blockhchain analytics has been a thing since at least 2013 during the first wave of DNM take downs, and only further substantiates my argument about having proper OPSEC. > My debit and credit cards have worked flawlessly for my entire adult life. That’s what you’re competing against. The fees are still cheaper than handling cash for merchants. I'm guessing you don't travel much? I've had my credit card account shut down while in Switzerland on my last days when I tried to buy an airline ticket and after several hours of trying to get a hold of them and explaining to them why my tourist Visa will likely expire before they can reactivate it, they shrugged their shoulders and basically said 'not my problem.' And had to wait for them to get back to me. Meanwhile, I literately had to ask the butcher (I was making dinner for my hosts) to hold on to my order as he was wrapping it up while I went back to go move some BTC around and come back with CHF in hand several hours later, it was rather embarrassing to say the least. The fees are actually not cheaper for them, hence why places with low profit margins will always have an amount requirement to use Credit Card POS systems and even give discounts for cash purchases for depreciating things like gasoline: you ever wonder why they have 2 different prices? That's why, and its contrary to your argument. > What happens if someone steals cryptocurrency from my wallet? What happens if someone hacks into my bank account and steals dollars? The same thing that happens to cash stolen out your wallet: its gone for good. The thing is we have consumer level tech that make it nearly impossible for that to ever take place. The possibility exists, sure but the amount of effort to steal your $50 from a trezor or ledger (short of mugging you) is going to have limited appeal to any adversary. > Cryptocurrencies don't even solve basic issues like this that actually matter. I can sign up for an Apple Card and use that immediately to seamlessly make payments (it's not the best card but just for illustration purposes) or buy services. I can't do that with any cryptocurrency. That's a matter of opinion and not fact, given your access to the traditional Legacy system. And, sure you can, a merchant just has to accept cryptoccurency in the first place. I'll grant you they're limited numbers these days, but go ahead and buy something off newegg right now with BTC, it can be done. Your argument is only valid when dealing with fiat facing transactions, but still that's not true because you can sign up for Square and you can get Visa credit card to load your Bitcoin to in real time once you have it, granted it will take time to verify as with any KYC/AML system but that has more to do with Visa/Fiat then Cryptocurrencies limitations. > So far there are just too many inconveniences/risks for me to make it worthwhile. Agreed. Trying to on-board the greatest benefactors of the Legacy system (affluent Westerners) is not a milestone we've been able to achieve yet, but that doesn't detract from the other billions on this planet, thus my arguments are valid anyway. > Privacy issues aren't really solved en mass either, because companies like Coinbase authenticate you for tax purposes (i.e. the IRS and NSA have you). First, I call it COiNbase for a reason, second exchanges aren't even really how this tech was supposed to be used in the first place. But I'll grant you due to convenience most will always favour it, and for good reason and that's why Fidelity got onboard when it did. I'm not trying to even hint that I'm condoning this will evade taxes, and I will say I DISCOURAGE DOING SO (PAY YOUR TAXES!), fiat is way better for that anyway, what I'm saying is that it has valid usecases for those who have issues with the aforementioned problems it solves and have limited access to the Legacy system, which happens to be Billions of People. I highly recommend people read up on the what is actually the 2nd largest economy in the World, its called SystemD [1]. I'd love to see a revised analysis, since 2020 was a milestone year, and so many have found themselves forced into this system due to COIVID pandemic for mere survival. > Plus, if you pay with a credit card, you have (in the US, at least) net 30 terms and some form of cash back/reward that comes out of the merchant fees. You could argue that this is a broken, monopoly-entrenching system and I wouldn't disagree with you, but it's the reality of the status quo you're competing with. You're telling me you'd rather keep everything in place because you get ~1% in cash back, and has a system that monitors, tracks and then sells all of your data to some 3rd party rather than have your money backed by a pseudonymous, limited and an ever appreciating currency then its clear what I'm up against is really you, not the obvious monopoly-entrenching system. I always said Bitcoin won't hit mainstream adoption based on a monetary value alone, it will only truly achieve that when its entirely indiscernible and just as 'convenient' than the current system, and hopefully it can be iterated to have all the features I mentioned thus far built in by default: much like the Internet most people would never find value in researching, and then deploying SSL despite how much information they divulge on the Internet. The same applies to Money. 1: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/forget-china-system-d-is-worlds-second-largest-economy-infographic-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/forget-china-system-d-is-... Edit: I just had to respond to this as it was too good: > Bitcoin routinely has >10 minute downtime, it just calls them "confirmation intervals". Sure, if your assumption is based on thinking PoW and the whole security thing is a downtime thing, too. Think if it more like compiling code or rendering video, that's far more accurate and relevant comparison.
toomuchtodo 6y ago
My debit and credit cards have worked flawlessly for my entire adult life. That’s what you’re competing against. The fees are still cheaper than handling cash for merchants.
- paulgb 6y ago
  Plus, if you pay with a credit card, you have (in the US, at least) net 30 terms and some form of cash back/reward that comes out of the merchant fees. You could argue that this is a broken, monopoly-entrenching system and I wouldn't disagree with you, but it's the reality of the status quo you're competing with.
ericmay 6y ago
What happens if someone steals cryptocurrency from my wallet? What happens if someone hacks into my bank account and steals dollars? Cryptocurrencies don't even solve basic issues like this that actually matter. I can sign up for an Apple Card and use that immediately to seamlessly make payments (it's not the best card but just for illustration purposes) or buy services. I can't do that with any cryptocurrency. So far there are just too many inconveniences/risks for me to make it worthwhile. > Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years. Just one. ??? All of them? I've never not been able to spend dollars. I've never had an issue where "all payments are down" on a network at a store or website, and if so it would have also affected any sort of cryptocurrency transaction. > 1MB blocksize is a feature, not a bug. I won't explain why I think this is one of the inherent issues. Why should it even need to be explained? If people don't just get it from the start, you're already at a disadvantage. Not to mention, governments will always require cryptocurrency to be pegged to dollar amounts for tax purposes, so it doesn't really solve the main issue I have with fiat currency is that the government can screw up the currency and devalue my wealth accumulation. Privacy issues aren't really solved en mass either, because companies like Coinbase authenticate you for tax purposes (i.e. the IRS and NSA have you).
pjc50 6y ago
Bitcoin routinely has >10 minute downtime, it just calls them "confirmation intervals".
vkou 6y ago
> Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years. Just one. This is a goalpost nobody cares about. I've never had a credit or debit card declined because of network downtime, and neither has anyone I know. > TX costs have been less than they have for several years now; And still orders of magnitude greater than credit/debit cards. > I personally just made a 3sat/byte tx and it cleared the mempool in less than a hour: > And that was with a sub $1 tx I just wanted to play with to test what it was leading up the halvening. Yes, let me get on buying coffee, and waiting 'less than an hour' for my transaction to clear. > Lastly, let's not forget how you can literately move $Billions [1] for pennies with no middle men If I needed a billion dollars moved, the banking fees I'd be paying would be a lot lower than what you'd imagine they'd be. In fact, if I needed a billion dollars moved, banks would be falling over backwards to get my business, because moving money is easy, and they can make more money from providing other services to me. For the case where I need thousands of dollars moved, exchange rate uncertainty risk vastly exceeds whatever fees I'd be paying.

paulgb 6y ago

> Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years Is payment network downtime a real pain point of merchants? I can't remember being inconvenienced by a full payment network outage in the last decade. I've encountered issues where the connection between the merchant and payment service was unavailable, but paying with Bitcoin wouldn't alleviate those issues. > It's almost like many of you want to be survailed with this kind of thinking, it almost makes me not want to blame the NSA for doing what they have. Or, I think that the NSA are nearly as able to trace a US-based Bitcoin transaction if so motivated.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Is payment network downtime a real pain point of merchants? I can't remember being inconvenienced by a full payment network outage in the last decade... Very, and it shows you're not a merchant. Thus, not really my demographic so any argument I make will be seen as 'irrelevant' to you or anyone like you. Loss of business due to network failures, or outright denial of services, is a critical usecase for anyone dealing in high volume low margin transactions for goods and services. Especially for one based on e-commerce which is out-stripping brick and mortars these days in case you haven't noticed. > Or, I think that the NSA are nearly as able to trace a US-based Bitcoin transaction if so motivated. Blockhchain analytics has been a thing since at least 2013 during the first wave of DNM take downs, and only further substantiates my argument about having proper OPSEC. > My debit and credit cards have worked flawlessly for my entire adult life. That’s what you’re competing against. The fees are still cheaper than handling cash for merchants. I'm guessing you don't travel much? I've had my credit card account shut down while in Switzerland on my last days when I tried to buy an airline ticket and after several hours of trying to get a hold of them and explaining to them why my tourist Visa will likely expire before they can reactivate it, they shrugged their shoulders and basically said 'not my problem.' And had to wait for them to get back to me. Meanwhile, I literately had to ask the butcher (I was making dinner for my hosts) to hold on to my order as he was wrapping it up while I went back to go move some BTC around and come back with CHF in hand several hours later, it was rather embarrassing to say the least. The fees are actually not cheaper for them, hence why places with low profit margins will always have an amount requirement to use Credit Card POS systems and even give discounts for cash purchases for depreciating things like gasoline: you ever wonder why they have 2 different prices? That's why, and its contrary to your argument. > What happens if someone steals cryptocurrency from my wallet? What happens if someone hacks into my bank account and steals dollars? The same thing that happens to cash stolen out your wallet: its gone for good. The thing is we have consumer level tech that make it nearly impossible for that to ever take place. The possibility exists, sure but the amount of effort to steal your $50 from a trezor or ledger (short of mugging you) is going to have limited appeal to any adversary. > Cryptocurrencies don't even solve basic issues like this that actually matter. I can sign up for an Apple Card and use that immediately to seamlessly make payments (it's not the best card but just for illustration purposes) or buy services. I can't do that with any cryptocurrency. That's a matter of opinion and not fact, given your access to the traditional Legacy system. And, sure you can, a merchant just has to accept cryptoccurency in the first place. I'll grant you they're limited numbers these days, but go ahead and buy something off newegg right now with BTC, it can be done. Your argument is only valid when dealing with fiat facing transactions, but still that's not true because you can sign up for Square and you can get Visa credit card to load your Bitcoin to in real time once you have it, granted it will take time to verify as with any KYC/AML system but that has more to do with Visa/Fiat then Cryptocurrencies limitations. > So far there are just too many inconveniences/risks for me to make it worthwhile. Agreed. Trying to on-board the greatest benefactors of the Legacy system (affluent Westerners) is not a milestone we've been able to achieve yet, but that doesn't detract from the other billions on this planet, thus my arguments are valid anyway. > Privacy issues aren't really solved en mass either, because companies like Coinbase authenticate you for tax purposes (i.e. the IRS and NSA have you). First, I call it COiNbase for a reason, second exchanges aren't even really how this tech was supposed to be used in the first place. But I'll grant you due to convenience most will always favour it, and for good reason and that's why Fidelity got onboard when it did. I'm not trying to even hint that I'm condoning this will evade taxes, and I will say I DISCOURAGE DOING SO (PAY YOUR TAXES!), fiat is way better for that anyway, what I'm saying is that it has valid usecases for those who have issues with the aforementioned problems it solves and have limited access to the Legacy system, which happens to be Billions of People. I highly recommend people read up on the what is actually the 2nd largest economy in the World, its called SystemD [1]. I'd love to see a revised analysis, since 2020 was a milestone year, and so many have found themselves forced into this system due to COIVID pandemic for mere survival. > Plus, if you pay with a credit card, you have (in the US, at least) net 30 terms and some form of cash back/reward that comes out of the merchant fees. You could argue that this is a broken, monopoly-entrenching system and I wouldn't disagree with you, but it's the reality of the status quo you're competing with. You're telling me you'd rather keep everything in place because you get ~1% in cash back, and has a system that monitors, tracks and then sells all of your data to some 3rd party rather than have your money backed by a pseudonymous, limited and an ever appreciating currency then its clear what I'm up against is really you, not the obvious monopoly-entrenching system. I always said Bitcoin won't hit mainstream adoption based on a monetary value alone, it will only truly achieve that when its entirely indiscernible and just as 'convenient' than the current system, and hopefully it can be iterated to have all the features I mentioned thus far built in by default: much like the Internet most people would never find value in researching, and then deploying SSL despite how much information they divulge on the Internet. The same applies to Money. 1: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/forget-china-system-d-is-worlds-second-largest-economy-infographic-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/forget-china-system-d-is-... Edit: I just had to respond to this as it was too good: > Bitcoin routinely has >10 minute downtime, it just calls them "confirmation intervals". Sure, if your assumption is based on thinking PoW and the whole security thing is a downtime thing, too. Think if it more like compiling code or rendering video, that's far more accurate and relevant comparison.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

My debit and credit cards have worked flawlessly for my entire adult life. That’s what you’re competing against. The fees are still cheaper than handling cash for merchants.

paulgb 6y ago
Plus, if you pay with a credit card, you have (in the US, at least) net 30 terms and some form of cash back/reward that comes out of the merchant fees. You could argue that this is a broken, monopoly-entrenching system and I wouldn't disagree with you, but it's the reality of the status quo you're competing with.

ericmay 6y ago

What happens if someone steals cryptocurrency from my wallet? What happens if someone hacks into my bank account and steals dollars? Cryptocurrencies don't even solve basic issues like this that actually matter. I can sign up for an Apple Card and use that immediately to seamlessly make payments (it's not the best card but just for illustration purposes) or buy services. I can't do that with any cryptocurrency. So far there are just too many inconveniences/risks for me to make it worthwhile. > Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years. Just one. ??? All of them? I've never not been able to spend dollars. I've never had an issue where "all payments are down" on a network at a store or website, and if so it would have also affected any sort of cryptocurrency transaction. > 1MB blocksize is a feature, not a bug. I won't explain why I think this is one of the inherent issues. Why should it even need to be explained? If people don't just get it from the start, you're already at a disadvantage. Not to mention, governments will always require cryptocurrency to be pegged to dollar amounts for tax purposes, so it doesn't really solve the main issue I have with fiat currency is that the government can screw up the currency and devalue my wealth accumulation. Privacy issues aren't really solved en mass either, because companies like Coinbase authenticate you for tax purposes (i.e. the IRS and NSA have you).

pjc50 6y ago

Bitcoin routinely has >10 minute downtime, it just calls them "confirmation intervals".

vkou 6y ago

> Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years. Just one. This is a goalpost nobody cares about. I've never had a credit or debit card declined because of network downtime, and neither has anyone I know. > TX costs have been less than they have for several years now; And still orders of magnitude greater than credit/debit cards. > I personally just made a 3sat/byte tx and it cleared the mempool in less than a hour: > And that was with a sub $1 tx I just wanted to play with to test what it was leading up the halvening. Yes, let me get on buying coffee, and waiting 'less than an hour' for my transaction to clear. > Lastly, let's not forget how you can literately move $Billions [1] for pennies with no middle men If I needed a billion dollars moved, the banking fees I'd be paying would be a lot lower than what you'd imagine they'd be. In fact, if I needed a billion dollars moved, banks would be falling over backwards to get my business, because moving money is easy, and they can make more money from providing other services to me. For the case where I need thousands of dollars moved, exchange rate uncertainty risk vastly exceeds whatever fees I'd be paying.