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>If all the people holding bitcoins become multi-millionaires in real terms over 20 years I'm sure they'll manage to cope with the philosophical loss somehow.

>If all the people holding bitcoins become multi-millionaires in real terms over 20 years I'm sure they'll manage to cope with the philosophical loss somehow. Given when you entered, some did. Many spent it trying to build what we have today. The former may have given into your reasoning, the latter however did very little to change their behaviour and only their attention-seeking acts changed: look at Amir for example. > There is still plenty of evidence that bitcoin is a bad long term investment... Based on what, 2017's absurdly inflated ATH and the ICO scams that made no sense to anyone who actually understood this tech and instead cashed out only to buy back in? Yeah, perhaps to those not capable of seeing any of that it might be a bad position... > The idea of it being digital gold isn't as far fetched as it was in 2016. Gold is a relic and an arbitrary thing that has no significance when Money is not only fiat but digital, and can now be programmed to be be defacto finite. I was a PM guy before I got into BTC, and I can tell you right now had I the good sense to trust my gut to trade my metal for BTC back then I'd be in a much loftier position in Life, and yet... no regrets as it taught me many valuable lessons and have me greater insight into Life than people 2-3 times my age. Specifically, that arguments about 'intrinsic worth' be it by Austrian economists (or there opponents) are really just rehashed fallacies and ideas only relevant to the clergy of Salamanca (who the Austrian's stole their ideas from) and their concepts of 16th Century thinking and Market dynamics. The 21st Century requires far more nuanced thinking, tools and I just hope we have Fiat to carry us until we become multi-planetary. Modern Capitalism, which is to say State-corporate controlled, is doing away with many myths, and revealing some basic truths; not least of which that Money has and will always be an abstraction. It's just so damn scary when you understand the implications of that statement and all that it entails when trust is lost in such a system.

roenxi 6y ago
> Gold is a relic and an arbitrary thing that has no significance when Money is not only fiat but digital, and can now be programmed to be be defacto finite. I feel compelled to point out gold has been outperforming Bitcoin for 2 years now and has been a performant investment to buy in to at basically any point in the last 15 years except 2012.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > I feel compelled to point out gold has been outperforming Bitcoin for 2 years now and has been a performant investment to buy in to at basically any point in the last 15 years except 2012. It what sense, because it's spot price remains at $1200, if you're talking about day-day roi then that's cherry picking at its finest as very few people who actually hold physical trade it. The paper markets are, much like anything Wallstreet, a machination so far detached from the real thing its hardly relevant. But, sure, lets assume the paper market has outperformed Bitcoin; lets see your numbers to validate that?
  - roenxi 6y ago
    The spot price hasn't been anywhere near $1,200 for more than a year. 15 years ago the spot price was around $400. Gold went from ~$400 in 2005 to ~1,300 in 2019. That is about 3x. S&P 500 went from ~1,100 in '05 to ~3,000 in 2019. Also about 3x. Gold is doing fine. And turned out to be a much better bet than stocks after including 2020 :D. And if you want to put a bitcoin price chart side by side a gold price chart over the last 2 years it sorta speaks for itself. Gold went up. Bitcoin went all over the shop, averaging flat. If you want to call 2 years cherry picking be my guest, but it hasn't been a performer recently. It isn't a point of contention that Bitcoin is up infinitely from 2005.
gamblor956 6y ago
Like other metals gold has intrinsic value and can be used in actual, physical things beyond just being shiny or representing an arbitrary unit of exchange. For example, gold is non-corrosive and a good conductor.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  I'm well aware of its limited use-cases. Its also a good heat insulator. I saw a prototype chassis get built with gold leaf being placed around the firewall and the tranny tunnel. While useful, in a very limited usecase kind of way, it still seemed rather absurd to have that material being used could be seen as anything more than commodity. It's like saying Carbon Fibre should also be a currency as it has equally limited usecases. But none of that really changes the fact that 'intrinsic worth' is just a convenient word/argument people throw around to dismiss something they don't like or understand, failing to see that fiat has lost any of its intrinsic worth for over an entire generation (starting with the USD in 1913) and has brought about a level of prosperity never seen before in the World. It's a trade off I'd make in a heart beat if I knew for certain that the generations to follow would have a quality and standard of Life comparable to Nobels if I were a poor peasant in 1912. Whatever paradigm metal backed currencies had utility in has been lost and while many may opine for its return, I'm glad it happened. I don't think you could truly fund a successful Space Program or something like the Internet without (at least initial) massive fiat deficit spending; and that is something most deluded 'libertarians' find unnecessary. Though that same property is what is supposed to be the vanguard to prevent war, yet one needs to only look back in Imperial European and Asian History (especially feudal Japan) to see just how wrong that really is.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    That's an extremely silly and nonsensical argument. Intrinsic worth means that an item has inherent, non-economic usefulness, i.e., you could use it even in the absence of trade of that item. Gold has because it can be used to protect items from corrosion, to conduct electricity, etc., and these uses don't depend on it being traded. Carbon fibre similarly has intrinsic uses, because you can do things with it even in the absence of trading it, like making cloth, parts, or vessels. Fiat currency does not have intrinsic value. It's sole value is that it is accepted by a government agency for debts owed by the government, and/or that it is the legally recognized method of non-barter exchanges of value. Cryptocurrency has no function apart for its role in trade, which is why--like fiat currency--it has no intrinsic value. Without trade, it's useless. It's sole proposition for having value is that the other people might want it.

roenxi 6y ago

> Gold is a relic and an arbitrary thing that has no significance when Money is not only fiat but digital, and can now be programmed to be be defacto finite. I feel compelled to point out gold has been outperforming Bitcoin for 2 years now and has been a performant investment to buy in to at basically any point in the last 15 years except 2012.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> I feel compelled to point out gold has been outperforming Bitcoin for 2 years now and has been a performant investment to buy in to at basically any point in the last 15 years except 2012. It what sense, because it's spot price remains at $1200, if you're talking about day-day roi then that's cherry picking at its finest as very few people who actually hold physical trade it. The paper markets are, much like anything Wallstreet, a machination so far detached from the real thing its hardly relevant. But, sure, lets assume the paper market has outperformed Bitcoin; lets see your numbers to validate that?
- roenxi 6y ago
  The spot price hasn't been anywhere near $1,200 for more than a year. 15 years ago the spot price was around $400. Gold went from ~$400 in 2005 to ~1,300 in 2019. That is about 3x. S&P 500 went from ~1,100 in '05 to ~3,000 in 2019. Also about 3x. Gold is doing fine. And turned out to be a much better bet than stocks after including 2020 :D. And if you want to put a bitcoin price chart side by side a gold price chart over the last 2 years it sorta speaks for itself. Gold went up. Bitcoin went all over the shop, averaging flat. If you want to call 2 years cherry picking be my guest, but it hasn't been a performer recently. It isn't a point of contention that Bitcoin is up infinitely from 2005.

gamblor956 6y ago

Like other metals gold has intrinsic value and can be used in actual, physical things beyond just being shiny or representing an arbitrary unit of exchange. For example, gold is non-corrosive and a good conductor.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
I'm well aware of its limited use-cases. Its also a good heat insulator. I saw a prototype chassis get built with gold leaf being placed around the firewall and the tranny tunnel. While useful, in a very limited usecase kind of way, it still seemed rather absurd to have that material being used could be seen as anything more than commodity. It's like saying Carbon Fibre should also be a currency as it has equally limited usecases. But none of that really changes the fact that 'intrinsic worth' is just a convenient word/argument people throw around to dismiss something they don't like or understand, failing to see that fiat has lost any of its intrinsic worth for over an entire generation (starting with the USD in 1913) and has brought about a level of prosperity never seen before in the World. It's a trade off I'd make in a heart beat if I knew for certain that the generations to follow would have a quality and standard of Life comparable to Nobels if I were a poor peasant in 1912. Whatever paradigm metal backed currencies had utility in has been lost and while many may opine for its return, I'm glad it happened. I don't think you could truly fund a successful Space Program or something like the Internet without (at least initial) massive fiat deficit spending; and that is something most deluded 'libertarians' find unnecessary. Though that same property is what is supposed to be the vanguard to prevent war, yet one needs to only look back in Imperial European and Asian History (especially feudal Japan) to see just how wrong that really is.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  That's an extremely silly and nonsensical argument. Intrinsic worth means that an item has inherent, non-economic usefulness, i.e., you could use it even in the absence of trade of that item. Gold has because it can be used to protect items from corrosion, to conduct electricity, etc., and these uses don't depend on it being traded. Carbon fibre similarly has intrinsic uses, because you can do things with it even in the absence of trading it, like making cloth, parts, or vessels. Fiat currency does not have intrinsic value. It's sole value is that it is accepted by a government agency for debts owed by the government, and/or that it is the legally recognized method of non-barter exchanges of value. Cryptocurrency has no function apart for its role in trade, which is why--like fiat currency--it has no intrinsic value. Without trade, it's useless. It's sole proposition for having value is that the other people might want it.