4 ms·

> More like, "and then you find yourself paying money to the establishment you were trying to overthrow" in this case. It's a big stretch to say that bitcoin h

> More like, "and then you find yourself paying money to the establishment you were trying to overthrow" in this case. It's a big stretch to say that bitcoin has "won" (or is winning) in any big way against the big banks ATM. Agreed, this! While positive on the face of things as it could keep Dorsey and the Winklevii content as they won't to keeping operating in obfuscated ways to conduct in the 'traditional banking system,' and lets them focus on more pertinent matters. It still doesn't solve what we were all after when we started this: we want to be unbanked by becoming the Bank ourselves. Although I disagree with your retort: JP Morgan and Jamie can say and do whatever he wants, positive or negative; we ate his lunch a long time ago and he failed to realize how much more of it was taken since then. This doesn't seem more than a petty concession to prolong his relevance to me, they have filed more patents for 'blockchain tech' than any other corp in the US to date. Take it form someone who on-boarded a significant amount of people into Bitcoin (that were not tech savvy at all) using Visa and MC channels only to have them taken away arbitrarily: this is not a solution, its a stall tactic. And a costly diversion at a time we should be innovating more than ever, cashless payments are the new norm now due to COVID. We have a superior network/product, let us not be reduced to thinking or appealing to what 'traditional thinking or conventional wisdom' will yield, because if we do then we lost the vision we were after.

paulgb 6y ago
> We have a superior network/product Not meaning to troll here, but I can't let these claims go. In what way is Bitcoin superior as a payment network to what we already have? Transaction costs are higher, the transaction throughput is (significantly) capped. Lightning Network was supposed to be the savior and has been "just around the corner" for as long as I can remember. There may be niche cases where censorship-resistance is worth the cost and complexity of using Bitcoin, but the vast majority of transactions do not need this.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years. Just one. TX costs have been less than they have for several years now; I personally just made a 3sat/byte tx and it cleared the mempool in less than a hour: I would have one lower but that was the least I could make it. And that was with a sub $1 tx I just wanted to play with to test what it was leading up the halvening. Try doing that with VISA or MC and not have to pay absurd fees for the 'privilege.' 1MB blocksize is a feature, not a bug. I won't explain why, but I'll answer any questions you may have about why that is, if you want. LN already has use cases, but I agree it was sold as a panacea just 'around the corner,' but the truth is the mainnet network remains uncongested and operational. So it achieved its primary purpose, the rest will come in time and Lightening Labs got more funding from Dorsey so I'm confident progress remains as it has been: unannounced and to very little fanfare unless you work on it. Lastly, let's not forget how you can literately move $Billions [1] for pennies with no middle men, or the need to have to be some high net-worth oligarch or Arab Shriek to get a bank to do so. > ...but the vast majority of transactions do not need this. It's almost like many of you want to be survailed with this kind of thinking, it almost makes me not want to blame the NSA for doing what they have. I won't even attempt to change your mind about that, but let just say that good OPSEC is perhaps more valuable than it ever has been in our interconnected, digital Life and I only see it being more with time. Data has been the new currency for how long and you still can't see writing on the wall? 1: https://bitcoinnews.com/news/1-1-billion-transaction-among-the-largest-bitcoin-transaction-in-history-sent-for-just-68-cents-in-fees/ https://bitcoinnews.com/news/1-1-billion-transaction-among-t...
  - paulgb 6y ago
    > Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years Is payment network downtime a real pain point of merchants? I can't remember being inconvenienced by a full payment network outage in the last decade. I've encountered issues where the connection between the merchant and payment service was unavailable, but paying with Bitcoin wouldn't alleviate those issues. > It's almost like many of you want to be survailed with this kind of thinking, it almost makes me not want to blame the NSA for doing what they have. Or, I think that the NSA are nearly as able to trace a US-based Bitcoin transaction if so motivated.
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > Is payment network downtime a real pain point of merchants? I can't remember being inconvenienced by a full payment network outage in the last decade... Very, and it shows you're not a merchant. Thus, not really my demographic so any argument I make will be seen as 'irrelevant' to you or anyone like you. Loss of business due to network failures, or outright denial of services, is a critical usecase for anyone dealing in high volume low margin transactions for goods and services. Especially for one based on e-commerce which is out-stripping brick and mortars these days in case you haven't noticed. > Or, I think that the NSA are nearly as able to trace a US-based Bitcoin transaction if so motivated. Blockhchain analytics has been a thing since at least 2013 during the first wave of DNM take downs, and only further substantiates my argument about having proper OPSEC. > My debit and credit cards have worked flawlessly for my entire adult life. That’s what you’re competing against. The fees are still cheaper than handling cash for merchants. I'm guessing you don't travel much? I've had my credit card account shut down while in Switzerland on my last days when I tried to buy an airline ticket and after several hours of trying to get a hold of them and explaining to them why my tourist Visa will likely expire before they can reactivate it, they shrugged their shoulders and basically said 'not my problem.' And had to wait for them to get back to me. Meanwhile, I literately had to ask the butcher (I was making dinner for my hosts) to hold on to my order as he was wrapping it up while I went back to go move some BTC around and come back with CHF in hand several hours later, it was rather embarrassing to say the least. The fees are actually not cheaper for them, hence why places with low profit margins will always have an amount requirement to use Credit Card POS systems and even give discounts for cash purchases for depreciating things like gasoline: you ever wonder why they have 2 different prices? That's why, and its contrary to your argument. > What happens if someone steals cryptocurrency from my wallet? What happens if someone hacks into my bank account and steals dollars? The same thing that happens to cash stolen out your wallet: its gone for good. The thing is we have consumer level tech that make it nearly impossible for that to ever take place. The possibility exists, sure but the amount of effort to steal your $50 from a trezor or ledger (short of mugging you) is going to have limited appeal to any adversary. > Cryptocurrencies don't even solve basic issues like this that actually matter. I can sign up for an Apple Card and use that immediately to seamlessly make payments (it's not the best card but just for illustration purposes) or buy services. I can't do that with any cryptocurrency. That's a matter of opinion and not fact, given your access to the traditional Legacy system. And, sure you can, a merchant just has to accept cryptoccurency in the first place. I'll grant you they're limited numbers these days, but go ahead and buy something off newegg right now with BTC, it can be done. Your argument is only valid when dealing with fiat facing transactions, but still that's not true because you can sign up for Square and you can get Visa credit card to load your Bitcoin to in real time once you have it, granted it will take time to verify as with any KYC/AML system but that has more to do with Visa/Fiat then Cryptocurrencies limitations. > So far there are just too many inconveniences/risks for me to make it worthwhile. Agreed. Trying to on-board the greatest benefactors of the Legacy system (affluent Westerners) is not a milestone we've been able to achieve yet, but that doesn't detract from the other billions on this planet, thus my arguments are valid anyway. > Privacy issues aren't really solved en mass either, because companies like Coinbase authenticate you for tax purposes (i.e. the IRS and NSA have you). First, I call it COiNbase for a reason, second exchanges aren't even really how this tech was supposed to be used in the first place. But I'll grant you due to convenience most will always favour it, and for good reason and that's why Fidelity got onboard when it did. I'm not trying to even hint that I'm condoning this will evade taxes, and I will say I DISCOURAGE DOING SO (PAY YOUR TAXES!), fiat is way better for that anyway, what I'm saying is that it has valid usecases for those who have issues with the aforementioned problems it solves and have limited access to the Legacy system, which happens to be Billions of People. I highly recommend people read up on the what is actually the 2nd largest economy in the World, its called SystemD [1]. I'd love to see a revised analysis, since 2020 was a milestone year, and so many have found themselves forced into this system due to COIVID pandemic for mere survival. > Plus, if you pay with a credit card, you have (in the US, at least) net 30 terms and some form of cash back/reward that comes out of the merchant fees. You could argue that this is a broken, monopoly-entrenching system and I wouldn't disagree with you, but it's the reality of the status quo you're competing with. You're telling me you'd rather keep everything in place because you get ~1% in cash back, and has a system that monitors, tracks and then sells all of your data to some 3rd party rather than have your money backed by a pseudonymous, limited and an ever appreciating currency then its clear what I'm up against is really you, not the obvious monopoly-entrenching system. I always said Bitcoin won't hit mainstream adoption based on a monetary value alone, it will only truly achieve that when its entirely indiscernible and just as 'convenient' than the current system, and hopefully it can be iterated to have all the features I mentioned thus far built in by default: much like the Internet most people would never find value in researching, and then deploying SSL despite how much information they divulge on the Internet. The same applies to Money. 1: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/forget-china-system-d-is-worlds-second-largest-economy-infographic-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/forget-china-system-d-is-... Edit: I just had to respond to this as it was too good: > Bitcoin routinely has >10 minute downtime, it just calls them "confirmation intervals". Sure, if your assumption is based on thinking PoW and the whole security thing is a downtime thing, too. Think if it more like compiling code or rendering video, that's far more accurate and relevant comparison.

paulgb 6y ago

> We have a superior network/product Not meaning to troll here, but I can't let these claims go. In what way is Bitcoin superior as a payment network to what we already have? Transaction costs are higher, the transaction throughput is (significantly) capped. Lightning Network was supposed to be the savior and has been "just around the corner" for as long as I can remember. There may be niche cases where censorship-resistance is worth the cost and complexity of using Bitcoin, but the vast majority of transactions do not need this.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years. Just one. TX costs have been less than they have for several years now; I personally just made a 3sat/byte tx and it cleared the mempool in less than a hour: I would have one lower but that was the least I could make it. And that was with a sub $1 tx I just wanted to play with to test what it was leading up the halvening. Try doing that with VISA or MC and not have to pay absurd fees for the 'privilege.' 1MB blocksize is a feature, not a bug. I won't explain why, but I'll answer any questions you may have about why that is, if you want. LN already has use cases, but I agree it was sold as a panacea just 'around the corner,' but the truth is the mainnet network remains uncongested and operational. So it achieved its primary purpose, the rest will come in time and Lightening Labs got more funding from Dorsey so I'm confident progress remains as it has been: unannounced and to very little fanfare unless you work on it. Lastly, let's not forget how you can literately move $Billions [1] for pennies with no middle men, or the need to have to be some high net-worth oligarch or Arab Shriek to get a bank to do so. > ...but the vast majority of transactions do not need this. It's almost like many of you want to be survailed with this kind of thinking, it almost makes me not want to blame the NSA for doing what they have. I won't even attempt to change your mind about that, but let just say that good OPSEC is perhaps more valuable than it ever has been in our interconnected, digital Life and I only see it being more with time. Data has been the new currency for how long and you still can't see writing on the wall? 1: https://bitcoinnews.com/news/1-1-billion-transaction-among-the-largest-bitcoin-transaction-in-history-sent-for-just-68-cents-in-fees/ https://bitcoinnews.com/news/1-1-billion-transaction-among-t...
- paulgb 6y ago
  > Name one other Network, be it payment or otherise, that has had less downtime than Bitcoin's in the last 10 years Is payment network downtime a real pain point of merchants? I can't remember being inconvenienced by a full payment network outage in the last decade. I've encountered issues where the connection between the merchant and payment service was unavailable, but paying with Bitcoin wouldn't alleviate those issues. > It's almost like many of you want to be survailed with this kind of thinking, it almost makes me not want to blame the NSA for doing what they have. Or, I think that the NSA are nearly as able to trace a US-based Bitcoin transaction if so motivated.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > Is payment network downtime a real pain point of merchants? I can't remember being inconvenienced by a full payment network outage in the last decade... Very, and it shows you're not a merchant. Thus, not really my demographic so any argument I make will be seen as 'irrelevant' to you or anyone like you. Loss of business due to network failures, or outright denial of services, is a critical usecase for anyone dealing in high volume low margin transactions for goods and services. Especially for one based on e-commerce which is out-stripping brick and mortars these days in case you haven't noticed. > Or, I think that the NSA are nearly as able to trace a US-based Bitcoin transaction if so motivated. Blockhchain analytics has been a thing since at least 2013 during the first wave of DNM take downs, and only further substantiates my argument about having proper OPSEC. > My debit and credit cards have worked flawlessly for my entire adult life. That’s what you’re competing against. The fees are still cheaper than handling cash for merchants. I'm guessing you don't travel much? I've had my credit card account shut down while in Switzerland on my last days when I tried to buy an airline ticket and after several hours of trying to get a hold of them and explaining to them why my tourist Visa will likely expire before they can reactivate it, they shrugged their shoulders and basically said 'not my problem.' And had to wait for them to get back to me. Meanwhile, I literately had to ask the butcher (I was making dinner for my hosts) to hold on to my order as he was wrapping it up while I went back to go move some BTC around and come back with CHF in hand several hours later, it was rather embarrassing to say the least. The fees are actually not cheaper for them, hence why places with low profit margins will always have an amount requirement to use Credit Card POS systems and even give discounts for cash purchases for depreciating things like gasoline: you ever wonder why they have 2 different prices? That's why, and its contrary to your argument. > What happens if someone steals cryptocurrency from my wallet? What happens if someone hacks into my bank account and steals dollars? The same thing that happens to cash stolen out your wallet: its gone for good. The thing is we have consumer level tech that make it nearly impossible for that to ever take place. The possibility exists, sure but the amount of effort to steal your $50 from a trezor or ledger (short of mugging you) is going to have limited appeal to any adversary. > Cryptocurrencies don't even solve basic issues like this that actually matter. I can sign up for an Apple Card and use that immediately to seamlessly make payments (it's not the best card but just for illustration purposes) or buy services. I can't do that with any cryptocurrency. That's a matter of opinion and not fact, given your access to the traditional Legacy system. And, sure you can, a merchant just has to accept cryptoccurency in the first place. I'll grant you they're limited numbers these days, but go ahead and buy something off newegg right now with BTC, it can be done. Your argument is only valid when dealing with fiat facing transactions, but still that's not true because you can sign up for Square and you can get Visa credit card to load your Bitcoin to in real time once you have it, granted it will take time to verify as with any KYC/AML system but that has more to do with Visa/Fiat then Cryptocurrencies limitations. > So far there are just too many inconveniences/risks for me to make it worthwhile. Agreed. Trying to on-board the greatest benefactors of the Legacy system (affluent Westerners) is not a milestone we've been able to achieve yet, but that doesn't detract from the other billions on this planet, thus my arguments are valid anyway. > Privacy issues aren't really solved en mass either, because companies like Coinbase authenticate you for tax purposes (i.e. the IRS and NSA have you). First, I call it COiNbase for a reason, second exchanges aren't even really how this tech was supposed to be used in the first place. But I'll grant you due to convenience most will always favour it, and for good reason and that's why Fidelity got onboard when it did. I'm not trying to even hint that I'm condoning this will evade taxes, and I will say I DISCOURAGE DOING SO (PAY YOUR TAXES!), fiat is way better for that anyway, what I'm saying is that it has valid usecases for those who have issues with the aforementioned problems it solves and have limited access to the Legacy system, which happens to be Billions of People. I highly recommend people read up on the what is actually the 2nd largest economy in the World, its called SystemD [1]. I'd love to see a revised analysis, since 2020 was a milestone year, and so many have found themselves forced into this system due to COIVID pandemic for mere survival. > Plus, if you pay with a credit card, you have (in the US, at least) net 30 terms and some form of cash back/reward that comes out of the merchant fees. You could argue that this is a broken, monopoly-entrenching system and I wouldn't disagree with you, but it's the reality of the status quo you're competing with. You're telling me you'd rather keep everything in place because you get ~1% in cash back, and has a system that monitors, tracks and then sells all of your data to some 3rd party rather than have your money backed by a pseudonymous, limited and an ever appreciating currency then its clear what I'm up against is really you, not the obvious monopoly-entrenching system. I always said Bitcoin won't hit mainstream adoption based on a monetary value alone, it will only truly achieve that when its entirely indiscernible and just as 'convenient' than the current system, and hopefully it can be iterated to have all the features I mentioned thus far built in by default: much like the Internet most people would never find value in researching, and then deploying SSL despite how much information they divulge on the Internet. The same applies to Money. 1: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/forget-china-system-d-is-worlds-second-largest-economy-infographic-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/forget-china-system-d-is-... Edit: I just had to respond to this as it was too good: > Bitcoin routinely has >10 minute downtime, it just calls them "confirmation intervals". Sure, if your assumption is based on thinking PoW and the whole security thing is a downtime thing, too. Think if it more like compiling code or rendering video, that's far more accurate and relevant comparison.