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Whose to say they won't 180 their decision and all known bitcoin accounts and affiliated companies are removed from their banking services, amounts seized, etc

Whose to say they won't 180 their decision and all known bitcoin accounts and affiliated companies are removed from their banking services, amounts seized, etc Plus the whole message of centralization vs decentralized of crypto. But yeah, "appropriate regulations and risk management" for whom, YOU the customer, or THEM the Bank? JP Morgan is not your friend if you deal in Crypto. The market tide is swinging that they have to play to compete but they are overall 100% hostile. Same as HSBC.

koheripbal 6y ago
They usually do this when they suspect there's money laundering going on, usually due to drug dealing. which, you know, DOES happen on Bitcoin exchanges.
- npongratz 6y ago
  Of course. And it happens on an even larger scale in the legacy fiat banking system [0], but when caught, "offenders" continue conducting business as usual after they pay a small tribute. [0] One of many examples: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-probe-idUSBRE8BA05M20121212 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-probe-idUSBRE8BA05M2...
  - techntoke 6y ago
    They aid criminals knowingly, and just get a slap on the wrist when they get caught: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/17/deutsche-bank-faces-action-over-20bn-russian-money-laundering-scheme https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/17/deutsche-ba...
    - z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
      Aid? The big banks orchestrate much of the drug and human trafficking trade on the planet.
- _eht 6y ago
  Are we ready to remember Chase owned assets smuggling cocaine?
  - jcims 6y ago
    I don't understand this 'past sins' accounting in the thread. It's not 'wolf of main street' for a reason. Sure there are the bean counters in banks, but they also hire people on the ragged edge of sanity in risk management, making giant bets on incomplete information and parlaying those into more bets before the grand settling comes around. It's like those old-school cartoons of someone running across a footbridge just fast enough to stay ahead of its collapse. The idea that a few of them aren't going to break some laws is kind of laughable. The only problem is whether or not they are penalized.
    - _eht 6y ago
      What is accounting without a history to account for? It’s a part of their living history, similar to Quaker Oats having a history which includes participating in the Manhattan project. I guess I don’t understand why we’re discouraged from including history when we talk about living and breathing companies. Should it be saved for when the company no longer exists? How do we make them accountable when they are gone?
- rootsudo 6y ago
  Yes, because Cash is not used to launder money - nor would they ever ignore their own policies. Oh, wait -- https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-usa/hsbc-draws-line-under-mexican-cartel-case-after-five-years-on-probation https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-usa/hsbc-draws-line-... So it's okay for a bank to do it, but not a person? It's okay for a bank to take advantage of fraction reserve and lend out and help a criminal org launder money? Yes, this case they the bank, was caught, but not suddenly. https://www.ccn.com/jamie-it-aint-bitcoin-jp-morgan-involved-in-1-billion-cocaine-bust/ https://www.ccn.com/jamie-it-aint-bitcoin-jp-morgan-involved... -- Drug dealing is the lowest of the totem pole, there are banks out there that actively take Iran and N. Korea money and they are under sanctions.
  - vkou 6y ago
    The percentage of cash that's used for criminal activity is much smaller than the percentage of BTC that is used for such. I'm including darknet markets, ransomware, and outright exchange thefts in this. ~170 billion USD worth of BTC exists. ~9 billion USD worth of BTC has been stolen from various exchange hacks. ~140 million USD worth of BTC has been stolen through ransomware attacks. ... And as for commercial transactions: Darknet markets make up ~40% of all non-theft, non-exchange related BTC commerce. [1] Cash may rule the drug world in absolute numbers, but in relative numbers, the overwhelming majority of cash is used in the real economy. When nearly half the BTC that's used to transact is used for illegal purposes, it's pretty easy to see why banks aren't interested in touching it. Why risk losing your banking license, for collecting fees from such a tiny market segment? [1] https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/darknet-markets-cryptocurrency-2019 https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/darknet-markets-cryptoc...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jcims 6y ago
Should have started with these points, which are reasonable. >Whose to say they won't 180 their decision and all known bitcoin accounts and affiliated companies are removed from their banking services, amounts seized, etc There are likely real risks here, and everyone wanting to go this route would be well advised to tread lightly and carefully to start...especially if they are doing something they aren't going to be willing to stand up in a court of law to defend. There are a bunch of 'know your customer' regulations that apply to banks that require them to do some amount of due diligence on why their customers are moving money. They cannot just say 'it's their money, not my problem'. > Plus the whole message of centralization vs decentralized of crypto. That's on the exchanges and the people that use this system. > But yeah, "appropriate regulations and risk management" for whom, YOU the customer, or THEM the Bank? Them, 100%, this should be no surprise. There are FDIC controls to protect customer assets up to a certain amount but that's it. > JP Morgan is not your friend if you deal in Crypto. The market tide is swinging that they have to play to compete but they are overall 100% hostile. None of these organizations are your friend, even the exchanges. The main conflict with incumbent banks is going to be specifically with bitcoin and other non-fiat currency. That won't go away any time soon. Blockchain and cryptocurrency (fiat-backed) on the other hand are potentially huge cost-saving measures and the banks are likely to adopt those much more quickly. Of course the concern will be that decentralized currencies like bitcoin will be relegated back to novelty class.
_eht 6y ago
And they said the fed didn’t have any more cards to play...
vkou 6y ago
> Plus the whole message of centralization vs decentralized of crypto. That ship has sailed a long time ago. Crypto is centralized. People have voted with their wallets, overwhelmingly for centralization. Possibly because the #1 demand for crypto comes from exchange speculators, who don't want to pay on-ledger transaction fees.
gamblor956 6y ago
JP Morgan is not your friend if you deal in Crypto. Nobody is your friend if you deal in crypto. That's the whole point of crypto. Or are we going to forget all the times that Coinbase and Bitfinex prevented customers from selling their coins as the value was falling, or when Tether promised an audit of their supposedly 1:1 USD-backed currency and then never did, or that time Mt Gox failed and took down several billion worth of coins with it, or that time Ethereum unilaterally changed the ledger because of the DAO scandal and wiped out $300 million of holdings? The banks at least are governed by laws and regulated by governments. Many of the exchanges don't even bother to pay lip service to regulation.

koheripbal 6y ago

They usually do this when they suspect there's money laundering going on, usually due to drug dealing. which, you know, DOES happen on Bitcoin exchanges.

npongratz 6y ago
Of course. And it happens on an even larger scale in the legacy fiat banking system [0], but when caught, "offenders" continue conducting business as usual after they pay a small tribute. [0] One of many examples: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-probe-idUSBRE8BA05M20121212 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-probe-idUSBRE8BA05M2...
- techntoke 6y ago
  They aid criminals knowingly, and just get a slap on the wrist when they get caught: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/17/deutsche-bank-faces-action-over-20bn-russian-money-laundering-scheme https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/17/deutsche-ba...
  - z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
    Aid? The big banks orchestrate much of the drug and human trafficking trade on the planet.
_eht 6y ago
Are we ready to remember Chase owned assets smuggling cocaine?
- jcims 6y ago
  I don't understand this 'past sins' accounting in the thread. It's not 'wolf of main street' for a reason. Sure there are the bean counters in banks, but they also hire people on the ragged edge of sanity in risk management, making giant bets on incomplete information and parlaying those into more bets before the grand settling comes around. It's like those old-school cartoons of someone running across a footbridge just fast enough to stay ahead of its collapse. The idea that a few of them aren't going to break some laws is kind of laughable. The only problem is whether or not they are penalized.
  - _eht 6y ago
    What is accounting without a history to account for? It’s a part of their living history, similar to Quaker Oats having a history which includes participating in the Manhattan project. I guess I don’t understand why we’re discouraged from including history when we talk about living and breathing companies. Should it be saved for when the company no longer exists? How do we make them accountable when they are gone?
rootsudo 6y ago
Yes, because Cash is not used to launder money - nor would they ever ignore their own policies. Oh, wait -- https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-usa/hsbc-draws-line-under-mexican-cartel-case-after-five-years-on-probation https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-usa/hsbc-draws-line-... So it's okay for a bank to do it, but not a person? It's okay for a bank to take advantage of fraction reserve and lend out and help a criminal org launder money? Yes, this case they the bank, was caught, but not suddenly. https://www.ccn.com/jamie-it-aint-bitcoin-jp-morgan-involved-in-1-billion-cocaine-bust/ https://www.ccn.com/jamie-it-aint-bitcoin-jp-morgan-involved... -- Drug dealing is the lowest of the totem pole, there are banks out there that actively take Iran and N. Korea money and they are under sanctions.
- vkou 6y ago
  The percentage of cash that's used for criminal activity is much smaller than the percentage of BTC that is used for such. I'm including darknet markets, ransomware, and outright exchange thefts in this. ~170 billion USD worth of BTC exists. ~9 billion USD worth of BTC has been stolen from various exchange hacks. ~140 million USD worth of BTC has been stolen through ransomware attacks. ... And as for commercial transactions: Darknet markets make up ~40% of all non-theft, non-exchange related BTC commerce. [1] Cash may rule the drug world in absolute numbers, but in relative numbers, the overwhelming majority of cash is used in the real economy. When nearly half the BTC that's used to transact is used for illegal purposes, it's pretty easy to see why banks aren't interested in touching it. Why risk losing your banking license, for collecting fees from such a tiny market segment? [1] https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/darknet-markets-cryptocurrency-2019 https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/darknet-markets-cryptoc...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jcims 6y ago

Should have started with these points, which are reasonable. >Whose to say they won't 180 their decision and all known bitcoin accounts and affiliated companies are removed from their banking services, amounts seized, etc There are likely real risks here, and everyone wanting to go this route would be well advised to tread lightly and carefully to start...especially if they are doing something they aren't going to be willing to stand up in a court of law to defend. There are a bunch of 'know your customer' regulations that apply to banks that require them to do some amount of due diligence on why their customers are moving money. They cannot just say 'it's their money, not my problem'. > Plus the whole message of centralization vs decentralized of crypto. That's on the exchanges and the people that use this system. > But yeah, "appropriate regulations and risk management" for whom, YOU the customer, or THEM the Bank? Them, 100%, this should be no surprise. There are FDIC controls to protect customer assets up to a certain amount but that's it. > JP Morgan is not your friend if you deal in Crypto. The market tide is swinging that they have to play to compete but they are overall 100% hostile. None of these organizations are your friend, even the exchanges. The main conflict with incumbent banks is going to be specifically with bitcoin and other non-fiat currency. That won't go away any time soon. Blockchain and cryptocurrency (fiat-backed) on the other hand are potentially huge cost-saving measures and the banks are likely to adopt those much more quickly. Of course the concern will be that decentralized currencies like bitcoin will be relegated back to novelty class.

_eht 6y ago

And they said the fed didn’t have any more cards to play...

vkou 6y ago

> Plus the whole message of centralization vs decentralized of crypto. That ship has sailed a long time ago. Crypto is centralized. People have voted with their wallets, overwhelmingly for centralization. Possibly because the #1 demand for crypto comes from exchange speculators, who don't want to pay on-ledger transaction fees.

gamblor956 6y ago

JP Morgan is not your friend if you deal in Crypto. Nobody is your friend if you deal in crypto. That's the whole point of crypto. Or are we going to forget all the times that Coinbase and Bitfinex prevented customers from selling their coins as the value was falling, or when Tether promised an audit of their supposedly 1:1 USD-backed currency and then never did, or that time Mt Gox failed and took down several billion worth of coins with it, or that time Ethereum unilaterally changed the ledger because of the DAO scandal and wiped out $300 million of holdings? The banks at least are governed by laws and regulated by governments. Many of the exchanges don't even bother to pay lip service to regulation.