4 ms·

> We have to strive to eliminate or reduce conscience and subconscious biases to ensure fairness. Why? Does fairness serve a business purpose? Are businesses h

> We have to strive to eliminate or reduce conscience and subconscious biases to ensure fairness. Why? Does fairness serve a business purpose? Are businesses held to be fair to their employees in other circumstances? What is fair? Perfect proportional representation of the host population? Within what limits? Can we make a heuristic for what's more fair? Should that drive hiring decisions more than other factors? The way I've come to see it, so-called fair hiring practices are purely a social signal that companies are required, by the market, to hold - and only in the sense that they need to NOT appear to NOT be fair, in terms of bad press. Other than that, companies don't seem to have any actual obligation to be fair, unless held accountable by some other mechanism (a union, the court of public opinion, government regulations, etc). They will only do so as far as it provides a favourable outlook for the company, and not further. When sweatshop-like conditions are profitable and the attention of the public is elsewhere, for instance, sweatshops you will get. It doesn't matter much if every race is slaving away in there together side by side if they're still slaving away.

iguy 6y ago
Another reading of "We have to strive" is simply that, if we do wish to reduce various biases, it is something we must do consciously. That doing so runs against what's easy, our natural inclination is to extrapolate and generalize. Deciding what fair means is indeed hard. But most would today agree (I think) that judging someone to be incompetent based on the reputation of those of the same ethnicity is unfair.
- core-questions 6y ago
  > if we do wish to reduce various biases Again, though, the desire to do this is based entirely on marketing, and not on merit. > judging someone to be incompetent based on the reputation of those of the same ethnicity is unfair Sure, but mandatory hiring of people of particular ethnicities in order to boost some arbitrary "diversity quotient" (read: non-white quotient) is potentially just as unfair to other qualified applicants.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    I work with exactly 0 black software engineers in NYC office. I see it as a reflection upon America, rather than a reflection on my company. The same company has black engineers in London. When we seek new employees - we had 0 black applicants in NYC over the last 3 years. We have a small percentage in London.
taurath 6y ago
If you want to have good objective judgement you must remove or at least be aware of your biases as much as possible.
- core-questions 6y ago
  What's a bias, versus a well-trained heuristic? Am I to deny a million years of evolution as a pattern-finding organism just to satisfy the political goals of a group of people who do not have the best interests of my own group at heart?
sethammons 6y ago
There have been studies on the value-add of diversity in the workforce. TL;DR: research "suggests that diverse work environments boost profitability, culture, and public perception.[1]" 1: https://www.purdueglobal.edu/blog/careers/how-does-workplace-diversity-affect-business/ https://www.purdueglobal.edu/blog/careers/how-does-workplace...
- core-questions 6y ago
  Research that validates the only conclusion you're allowed to publish isn't research I'm going to base my life around. The famous Putnam study on diversity in neighbourhoods is much more realistic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and...
red_admiral 6y ago
"Fair" can mean a lot of things. If you asked three people to define fairness, you'd get at least three definitions, and I can think of some definitions that would indeed have a business purpose; I can also think of some that wouldn't. An example of something that would serve a business purpose: widening the potential target market. Of course if your company is producing maternity wear then you probably don't want to aim for a gender-balanced customer base. But in general, increasing the size of your taget market can serve a business purpose.
- core-questions 6y ago
  There's no reason to assume that a diverse (read: non-white) group is required in order to market to a diverse audience. Plenty of 100% Chinese companies manage to market to everyone in America via Amazon etc. every day. Will there be some requirement or even some business advantage to them to hire diversely?
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    I can't see much practical value for diversity based on skin pigmentation intensity, in software engineering. (There's a good amount of research for gender diversity, though)
int_19h 6y ago
Society exists to serve people, not businesses. Businesses are a tool to that end, so business purposes are only relevant when they don't run counter to human needs or cause human suffering.

iguy 6y ago

Another reading of "We have to strive" is simply that, if we do wish to reduce various biases, it is something we must do consciously. That doing so runs against what's easy, our natural inclination is to extrapolate and generalize. Deciding what fair means is indeed hard. But most would today agree (I think) that judging someone to be incompetent based on the reputation of those of the same ethnicity is unfair.

core-questions 6y ago
> if we do wish to reduce various biases Again, though, the desire to do this is based entirely on marketing, and not on merit. > judging someone to be incompetent based on the reputation of those of the same ethnicity is unfair Sure, but mandatory hiring of people of particular ethnicities in order to boost some arbitrary "diversity quotient" (read: non-white quotient) is potentially just as unfair to other qualified applicants.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  I work with exactly 0 black software engineers in NYC office. I see it as a reflection upon America, rather than a reflection on my company. The same company has black engineers in London. When we seek new employees - we had 0 black applicants in NYC over the last 3 years. We have a small percentage in London.

taurath 6y ago

If you want to have good objective judgement you must remove or at least be aware of your biases as much as possible.

core-questions 6y ago
What's a bias, versus a well-trained heuristic? Am I to deny a million years of evolution as a pattern-finding organism just to satisfy the political goals of a group of people who do not have the best interests of my own group at heart?

sethammons 6y ago

There have been studies on the value-add of diversity in the workforce. TL;DR: research "suggests that diverse work environments boost profitability, culture, and public perception.[1]" 1: https://www.purdueglobal.edu/blog/careers/how-does-workplace-diversity-affect-business/ https://www.purdueglobal.edu/blog/careers/how-does-workplace...

core-questions 6y ago
Research that validates the only conclusion you're allowed to publish isn't research I'm going to base my life around. The famous Putnam study on diversity in neighbourhoods is much more realistic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and...

red_admiral 6y ago

"Fair" can mean a lot of things. If you asked three people to define fairness, you'd get at least three definitions, and I can think of some definitions that would indeed have a business purpose; I can also think of some that wouldn't. An example of something that would serve a business purpose: widening the potential target market. Of course if your company is producing maternity wear then you probably don't want to aim for a gender-balanced customer base. But in general, increasing the size of your taget market can serve a business purpose.

core-questions 6y ago
There's no reason to assume that a diverse (read: non-white) group is required in order to market to a diverse audience. Plenty of 100% Chinese companies manage to market to everyone in America via Amazon etc. every day. Will there be some requirement or even some business advantage to them to hire diversely?
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  I can't see much practical value for diversity based on skin pigmentation intensity, in software engineering. (There's a good amount of research for gender diversity, though)

int_19h 6y ago

Society exists to serve people, not businesses. Businesses are a tool to that end, so business purposes are only relevant when they don't run counter to human needs or cause human suffering.