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You can’t cheat at learning. You can only cheat at a game, which is what the accreditation system we call education is. If we stopped making it a game, withou

You can’t cheat at learning. You can only cheat at a game, which is what the accreditation system we call education is. If we stopped making it a game, without points to earn and rewards for points, people wouldn’t cheat. That aside, I think the act of cheating is a call for help, even if the callee doesn’t realise it. The pressure to do well coupled with a persons lack of self confidence or self belief come together to make cheating a reasonable route. If you believed you could never get x, that getting x would massively improve your life, social status, parents acceptance etc you might be prepared to do anything to get x. Not everyone though, some are probably just resigned to never getting x. They too are calling for help imo. But we weren’t talking about them.

zappo2938 6y ago
The kids at Stuyvesant who cheated are now bankers and lawyers -- depends what they were learning to do. I figure if the invested the same energy in studying than cheating they would have had equal grades.
- mtsr 6y ago
  Equal grades, but less relevant job experience, maybe.
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  How serial was their cheating? Just curious, odd to hear this about top students.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
cies 6y ago
> You can only cheat at a game You can only cheat rules/agreements/contracts. No rules, no cheating. I'd agree that learning has no rules. There are some natural laws I guess, like the "forgetting curve", but those cannot be cheated (hence natural laws). > I think the act of cheating is a call for help Or a lack of respect for the rules, or sheer curiosity. Maybe there are more reasons.
sriku 6y ago
Somehow this question of cheating and should we tell feels like the wrong question to ask but I unable to precisely state why I feel so. I believe the answer to this question would also vary among cultures ... Like what would students in China feel about it, for example. After schooling in a competitive environment, kids are suddenly asked to solve problems together. If that's the requirement in society, shouldn't teaching process reflect that?
Majromax 6y ago
> If we stopped making it a game, without points to earn and rewards for points, people wouldn’t cheat. Nonsense. There is an incentive to cheat any time there is a test, where capabilities are measured that are not routinely used. For example, if I were an engineer designing an elevator, it must meet its rated load limits times a hefty safety factor. That safety factor is a test, and if I were unscrupulous then I would have every incentive to "cheat" to falsely certify compliance. Under ordinary circumstances, that safety factor is left unused when the elevator is operated as per instructions, but the cheating covers up a latent problem with potentially catastrophic consequences. An academic degree isn't about a worthless piece of paper; it's ostensibly certification that the student has an acceptable mastery of the course material. Much of that material won't be used on a day-to-day basis, but it's still there, and it's still part of the credential that the graduate holds out to the world. But even if you're unconvinced by that, there's also the character signal at play. The "kind of person" who will cheat on an academic test is intuitively also the "kind of person" who will cheat in other areas of their professional life.
- exrook 6y ago
  Why not instead modify the test so that it more accurately measures the capabilities of interest instead? Such as in your elevator example, make it so that the operation of the elevator is tested with a heavy load approaching the desired safety factor, and evaluating the performance under this heavier than normal load? The idea being that the only way to "cheat" is to design a better elevator that can still meet the requirements. Of course the reason this isn't done is because of the extra cost of performing a more comprehensive test, but given how much students are paying for education, surely we could make some improvements over the status quo. I can't help but draw comparisons to SpaceX's starship development process vs that of the more traditional aerospace manufacturers. There isn't any way for the engineers to cheat because their work is tested under the target conditions and either passes[0] or fails[1][2]. The goal being to achieve the most efficient design that still meets requirements. [0] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259344535991140352 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259344535991140352 [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlDBjHa0NkU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlDBjHa0NkU [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFXQ5SRCy74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFXQ5SRCy74
michaelt 6y ago
> If we stopped making it a game, without points to earn and rewards for points, people wouldn’t cheat. Have you ever heard of people who wait until the last moment to start work on an assignment, or who study intensively a few days before an important exam? It's always seemed to me one of the big 'features' of college education you can't get with a library card or internet connection is the unstoppable steamroller of deadlines - slowly but inexorably advancing, reducing your options from 'study now, study later or fail' to only 'study now or fail' Do you think that exams and assignments provide such a role, and if so would your proposal address that need?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Rerarom 6y ago
  I always studied at the last moment because there wasn't any point to do it earlier since you could not take the exam earlier. Now I'm way more motivated to do stuff as early as possible since I can clear them off my to-do list as soon as they're done.
- mac01021 6y ago
  In the short term there would be nothing to fill that role, except maybe, for some, the fear of your peers leaving you behind. A generation later, society will have gained a fuller sense of the need for discipline, self motivation, and personal responsibility in any individual who wants to succeed at life. And so there will be many more people in the world trying to cultivate those virtues. It might turn out to be a great benefit to the human race as a result.
sandworm101 6y ago
>> That aside, I think the act of cheating is a call for help, even if the callee doesn’t realise it. The pressure to do well coupled with a persons lack of self confidence or self belief come together to make cheating a reasonable route. That's fine for the SATs. The logic holds in a system where people are competing against large groups of others. There you can treat it as a call for help and understand it as a reaction to pressure due to lack of confidence. But what about more competitive situations, times when say 10 people are fighting for one job in an all-or-nothing competition? Think astronaut training. Only one person is going on the rocket. Second place, staying on the ground, is meaningless. Confidence doesn't matter. Everyone is confident. Trying hard is irrelevant as everyone is trying 100%. Work meaningfully harder than everyone else might cause you to collapse into injury or breakdown. In such situations "cheating" may be the only way to differentiate one's self from others. I think that is why when professional athletes cheat they demonstrate little remorse. At their level it isn't a failure of confidence or morality, instead it is a reasoned choice made of necessity. That's why we need to closely watch people in such competitions. Morality, right and wrong, isn't enough.
garraeth 6y ago
>> If we stopped making it a game, without points to earn and rewards for points, people wouldn’t cheat. I think the OP is saying that if the "reward" for education is that you know more -- and that brings it's own intrinsic value on a cultural and personal basis -- then there will be no need to "score points" on any test or report card. Therefore, no "game" necessary. And that follows that there will be no cheating (why would you cheat if you, and your culture, are happy with the reward of education in and of itself?). imo, it's will take a quantum leap for us as a culture to reward education for education sake. To the point that when you interview, simply saying, "yes I understand X concept" will be met with belief by the interviewer/teacher (vs/ now when you have to "prove" your knowledge by a game-able "score"). As for personally, imo, people can do it now: love to learn for the sake of learning. No point in cheating on the test if you're learning the subject for your own edification. The test will simply tell you where you are still weak.
mc32 6y ago
There are always people who want the easy way out of anything. And there are always people who want to follow strict protocol even if it makes no sense. I had classmates who just wanted to pass by any means necessary and take that diploma back home and get a job there —their competition back home was usually subpar since these students had a leg up with their English and had a diploma from a US school, no matter how far down the US News ranking a system would be.
merpnderp 6y ago
I doubt very many cheaters lack self confidence, as cheating takes some balls. They're the entitled and lazy but usually bright. Which is why they suck, because they could master the material, they're just too lazy.
unishark 6y ago
> That aside, I think the act of cheating is a call for help, even if the callee doesn’t realise it. The pressure to do well coupled with a persons lack of self confidence or self belief come together to make cheating a reasonable route. Sometimes in life to grow you need to deal with a situation or goal that produces anxiety. Also sometimes your goals are simply not in line with your abilities or level of dedication, and you need to fail.

zappo2938 6y ago

The kids at Stuyvesant who cheated are now bankers and lawyers -- depends what they were learning to do. I figure if the invested the same energy in studying than cheating they would have had equal grades.

mtsr 6y ago
Equal grades, but less relevant job experience, maybe.
runawaybottle 6y ago
How serial was their cheating? Just curious, odd to hear this about top students.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

cies 6y ago

> You can only cheat at a game You can only cheat rules/agreements/contracts. No rules, no cheating. I'd agree that learning has no rules. There are some natural laws I guess, like the "forgetting curve", but those cannot be cheated (hence natural laws). > I think the act of cheating is a call for help Or a lack of respect for the rules, or sheer curiosity. Maybe there are more reasons.

sriku 6y ago

Somehow this question of cheating and should we tell feels like the wrong question to ask but I unable to precisely state why I feel so. I believe the answer to this question would also vary among cultures ... Like what would students in China feel about it, for example. After schooling in a competitive environment, kids are suddenly asked to solve problems together. If that's the requirement in society, shouldn't teaching process reflect that?

Majromax 6y ago

> If we stopped making it a game, without points to earn and rewards for points, people wouldn’t cheat. Nonsense. There is an incentive to cheat any time there is a test, where capabilities are measured that are not routinely used. For example, if I were an engineer designing an elevator, it must meet its rated load limits times a hefty safety factor. That safety factor is a test, and if I were unscrupulous then I would have every incentive to "cheat" to falsely certify compliance. Under ordinary circumstances, that safety factor is left unused when the elevator is operated as per instructions, but the cheating covers up a latent problem with potentially catastrophic consequences. An academic degree isn't about a worthless piece of paper; it's ostensibly certification that the student has an acceptable mastery of the course material. Much of that material won't be used on a day-to-day basis, but it's still there, and it's still part of the credential that the graduate holds out to the world. But even if you're unconvinced by that, there's also the character signal at play. The "kind of person" who will cheat on an academic test is intuitively also the "kind of person" who will cheat in other areas of their professional life.

exrook 6y ago
Why not instead modify the test so that it more accurately measures the capabilities of interest instead? Such as in your elevator example, make it so that the operation of the elevator is tested with a heavy load approaching the desired safety factor, and evaluating the performance under this heavier than normal load? The idea being that the only way to "cheat" is to design a better elevator that can still meet the requirements. Of course the reason this isn't done is because of the extra cost of performing a more comprehensive test, but given how much students are paying for education, surely we could make some improvements over the status quo. I can't help but draw comparisons to SpaceX's starship development process vs that of the more traditional aerospace manufacturers. There isn't any way for the engineers to cheat because their work is tested under the target conditions and either passes[0] or fails[1][2]. The goal being to achieve the most efficient design that still meets requirements. [0] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259344535991140352 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259344535991140352 [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlDBjHa0NkU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlDBjHa0NkU [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFXQ5SRCy74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFXQ5SRCy74

michaelt 6y ago

> If we stopped making it a game, without points to earn and rewards for points, people wouldn’t cheat. Have you ever heard of people who wait until the last moment to start work on an assignment, or who study intensively a few days before an important exam? It's always seemed to me one of the big 'features' of college education you can't get with a library card or internet connection is the unstoppable steamroller of deadlines - slowly but inexorably advancing, reducing your options from 'study now, study later or fail' to only 'study now or fail' Do you think that exams and assignments provide such a role, and if so would your proposal address that need?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Rerarom 6y ago
I always studied at the last moment because there wasn't any point to do it earlier since you could not take the exam earlier. Now I'm way more motivated to do stuff as early as possible since I can clear them off my to-do list as soon as they're done.
mac01021 6y ago
In the short term there would be nothing to fill that role, except maybe, for some, the fear of your peers leaving you behind. A generation later, society will have gained a fuller sense of the need for discipline, self motivation, and personal responsibility in any individual who wants to succeed at life. And so there will be many more people in the world trying to cultivate those virtues. It might turn out to be a great benefit to the human race as a result.

sandworm101 6y ago

>> That aside, I think the act of cheating is a call for help, even if the callee doesn’t realise it. The pressure to do well coupled with a persons lack of self confidence or self belief come together to make cheating a reasonable route. That's fine for the SATs. The logic holds in a system where people are competing against large groups of others. There you can treat it as a call for help and understand it as a reaction to pressure due to lack of confidence. But what about more competitive situations, times when say 10 people are fighting for one job in an all-or-nothing competition? Think astronaut training. Only one person is going on the rocket. Second place, staying on the ground, is meaningless. Confidence doesn't matter. Everyone is confident. Trying hard is irrelevant as everyone is trying 100%. Work meaningfully harder than everyone else might cause you to collapse into injury or breakdown. In such situations "cheating" may be the only way to differentiate one's self from others. I think that is why when professional athletes cheat they demonstrate little remorse. At their level it isn't a failure of confidence or morality, instead it is a reasoned choice made of necessity. That's why we need to closely watch people in such competitions. Morality, right and wrong, isn't enough.

garraeth 6y ago

>> If we stopped making it a game, without points to earn and rewards for points, people wouldn’t cheat. I think the OP is saying that if the "reward" for education is that you know more -- and that brings it's own intrinsic value on a cultural and personal basis -- then there will be no need to "score points" on any test or report card. Therefore, no "game" necessary. And that follows that there will be no cheating (why would you cheat if you, and your culture, are happy with the reward of education in and of itself?). imo, it's will take a quantum leap for us as a culture to reward education for education sake. To the point that when you interview, simply saying, "yes I understand X concept" will be met with belief by the interviewer/teacher (vs/ now when you have to "prove" your knowledge by a game-able "score"). As for personally, imo, people can do it now: love to learn for the sake of learning. No point in cheating on the test if you're learning the subject for your own edification. The test will simply tell you where you are still weak.

mc32 6y ago

There are always people who want the easy way out of anything. And there are always people who want to follow strict protocol even if it makes no sense. I had classmates who just wanted to pass by any means necessary and take that diploma back home and get a job there —their competition back home was usually subpar since these students had a leg up with their English and had a diploma from a US school, no matter how far down the US News ranking a system would be.

merpnderp 6y ago

I doubt very many cheaters lack self confidence, as cheating takes some balls. They're the entitled and lazy but usually bright. Which is why they suck, because they could master the material, they're just too lazy.

unishark 6y ago

> That aside, I think the act of cheating is a call for help, even if the callee doesn’t realise it. The pressure to do well coupled with a persons lack of self confidence or self belief come together to make cheating a reasonable route. Sometimes in life to grow you need to deal with a situation or goal that produces anxiety. Also sometimes your goals are simply not in line with your abilities or level of dedication, and you need to fail.