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I recently read Netflix's culture doc, and they outright said they treat employees like a sports team - welcome to the team, perform at your best, you may get b

I recently read Netflix's culture doc, and they outright said they treat employees like a sports team - welcome to the team, perform at your best, you may get benched, you may get cut. There's no shame in getting cut, and you should be proud that you had the talent to perform at our level for the time you did. My main takeaway was: fair enough, and when can I get into that interview pipeline. I want to be on a meat-eating, high performing team with comp to match, and I don't want much more. I think most in the industry are the same.

52-6F-62 6y ago
That is actually a pretty reasonable take in my opinion. And refreshing. Having been on [edit: sports] teams before, it can be a toxic situation or it can be absolutely amazing and life-affirming. It might sound cold in the language, but it can be so rewarding, so bonding. It's definitely a better analogy than family. Family is family. You can define it as you like, but nothing equates.
- dogman144 6y ago
  For sure! I've spent time in orgs that do this approach inherently, and it's tremendously fulfilling, more than ping pong tables and after-work beers ever could be. Shared hardship and superior performance that is greater than the sum of a team's individual talents are tremendous motivators and a dominant source of personal fulfillment. There's a bit of a challenge to get people to seek this environment out, but setting the tone from the top, as Netflix does, is a Step 0 to achieving it.
netcan 6y ago
There's something unsustainable about a "team" analogy... just as there is in a family one. Netflix may be the rare example where an elite sports team analogy applies, but... That can't be more than a rare exception. Ultimately, sports is different just like family is different and the way those things work relate to those differences. Sports is objective. Work isn't. Managers, players & spectators all know if they're playing in the A-league or the local league. In workplace culture, implying that you're not in the A-league is taboo. Remember that "elite" means very rare, and usually short lived.
- dogman144 6y ago
  Rather significantly disagree. People seek out, form, or join teams basically wherever they go, in whatever they do. While every team has an introvert, every team has a lead that works to pull the introvert into the fold. This is largely the "leaders/managers self identify themselves." Or, the introvert that strikes on on their own to do their own thing? Well if they're good..... they end up forming a team to support it. It's not about knowing you're on the A-league or not, or implying it or not. That issue, while you're correct about the taboo nature of implying one's team is anything less-than, is very besides the point. It's about how individuals time after time find fulfillment from performing at your (company, in this case) local optimum, with a hearty dose of feelings and actuality of personal autonomy, lack of micromanagement, clear standards that are just far enough of a stretch to be able to be met, etc. The nerdiest of nerds on a CTF team or hackathon will give each other a high five. In turn, to your point, the best players will seek out better teams. It's a primordial behavior, we all do it. There's a wealth of organizational/leadership science out there. It's a fun read that unlike many social sciences, actually has a pretty well proven lemmas behind it, which control for personality types across the spectrum. The military is a one great source of this, flat orgs are another, and everything in between still displays the same behavior (for orgs that do "well"). The behavior and incentives of A->Z people in high performing, high satisfaction environments tend to be very similar, just the implementation is a little different depending on specific org charts.
  - netcan 6y ago
    I'm not sure we disagree all that significantly. ;) I didn't mean to imply that we don't work in, join or even thrive in "teams." I meant the elite sports team analogy is a bad idea, usually. That's the analogy I netflix is going for, I believe. They meant it in that context, as you said: There's no shame in getting cut, and you should be proud that you had the talent to perform at our level for the time you did. All this has to be thought of as a management philosophy, because that's what it is. A Theory Of How We Do Things Here." Most os the time, work isn't sports-like. Objectivity is one fundamental difference, and actually running things like a sports team requires it. Hackathons are done to create sports-like scenarios on occasion. Trying to go past that, objectivity ends up biting you. ... you'll end up with productivity measures or some other low-autonomy management style. This was my point about taboo. It's an example of reality leaking into the metaphor, making it unsustainable. Companies mostly don't operate in objective scenarios. Contribution is very difficult to ascertain, especially for the kind of work that requires elite performance. Ultimately, a sports team is the way it is because of what it is. A team of artists shouldn't try to organise like a team of rowers or a software team like a sales team. Incidentally, many sales teams run exactly like netflix aspires to... and without much effort. Their reality is objective. A 10X salesman can actually earn 10X, like an elite athlete does. There are elite teams and it is prestigious to have a stint there, even though most don't last.
hanoz 6y ago
> and you should be proud that you had the talent to perform at our level for the time you did. My main takeaway is: they sound a bit bloody full of themselves.
- conductr 6y ago
  Shouldn't they be? They actively try their hardest to hire the best and they are honest on the re-balancing they do. It's an alpha mentality.
  - dogman144 6y ago
    yeah I'd say the track record of ex-Netflix'ers, the comp they say they pay (top of market for your individual skillset), and supporting evidence seems to indicate they walk the talk. Not for everyone though.
  - chrismarlow9 6y ago
    I'd agree with you. Like it or not netflix changed the watch online/VOD industry the way the iphone changed the cellphone industry.
sjtindell 6y ago
Much respect to Netflix, I hear nothing but good things culture and engineering wise. My last manager interviewed with them and said they gave him a 90+ frame PowerPoint on “the Netflix way“.
- afterburner 6y ago
  Um... was it a good presentation? Or just a load of brainwashing horseshit?
  - sjtindell 6y ago
    Sounded solid. On the one hand I’m sure that it can be nonsense, but having been through organizations without that kind of direction I appreciate it.
agd621 6y ago
Well don’t stop there with the analogy. Give me life changing income, public exposure to entice lucrative side hustles, a union with 49% of revenue to employees, and an off-season.
- artsyca 6y ago
  I hear you bro then we can call ourselves a professional team -- don't even stop there! Let's dress as a team and wear a uniform too I mean that with no hint of sarcasm most people can't draw the line between casual and toxic but it's obvious to anyone with any real professional experience outside of the silicon valley bubble
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  For the average person, the amount of money Netflix pays its engineers is absolutely life changing. Even if you have to live in the hideously expensive bay area to get it. Levels.fyi says the average compensation is...450k. But that's for the entire software engineer job ladder, so it's probably skewed upwards somewhat. Still, a median of 250-350k would still be a ton of money.
  - dogman144 6y ago
    They pay top-of-band on an annual re-evaluation basis and offer an all cash <-> all equity choice. So pairing that down to the low end new grad scale at Big N ($150, $180k?), but getting that TC in all cash vs. the $120k base, $30k vested equity combos out there, is really life changing.
    - TulliusCicero 6y ago
      I don't think the cash vs stock thing changes the calculus much. You could just sell what stock you get anyway (I have mine at Google set to autosell at vest).
  - netcan 6y ago
    Even so, I'll point out that this elite sports teams pay more than just 2X-3X more than average ones. For all the talk of "talent" in this industry, it doesn't work like a talent industry. Where engineers do earn major salaries, it's usually on account of the managerial element and not the engineering one. Lawyering is a talent industry, for example. Top lawyers in top firms do earn on a scale as disparate as pro athletes. The top lawyers may manage people, but their high salaries are for lawyering. The creative industries work that way, obviously. Engineering is structurally more like accounting.
afterburner 6y ago
The athletes they and their victims are thinking of when spouting that shitty metaphor make a minimum of a million dollars a year, enough to carry them through the hardships of constantly fighting for their position.
2019-nCoV 6y ago
Great to see Netflix hasn't shun meritocratic values.

52-6F-62 6y ago

That is actually a pretty reasonable take in my opinion. And refreshing. Having been on [edit: sports] teams before, it can be a toxic situation or it can be absolutely amazing and life-affirming. It might sound cold in the language, but it can be so rewarding, so bonding. It's definitely a better analogy than family. Family is family. You can define it as you like, but nothing equates.

dogman144 6y ago
For sure! I've spent time in orgs that do this approach inherently, and it's tremendously fulfilling, more than ping pong tables and after-work beers ever could be. Shared hardship and superior performance that is greater than the sum of a team's individual talents are tremendous motivators and a dominant source of personal fulfillment. There's a bit of a challenge to get people to seek this environment out, but setting the tone from the top, as Netflix does, is a Step 0 to achieving it.

netcan 6y ago

There's something unsustainable about a "team" analogy... just as there is in a family one. Netflix may be the rare example where an elite sports team analogy applies, but... That can't be more than a rare exception. Ultimately, sports is different just like family is different and the way those things work relate to those differences. Sports is objective. Work isn't. Managers, players & spectators all know if they're playing in the A-league or the local league. In workplace culture, implying that you're not in the A-league is taboo. Remember that "elite" means very rare, and usually short lived.

dogman144 6y ago
Rather significantly disagree. People seek out, form, or join teams basically wherever they go, in whatever they do. While every team has an introvert, every team has a lead that works to pull the introvert into the fold. This is largely the "leaders/managers self identify themselves." Or, the introvert that strikes on on their own to do their own thing? Well if they're good..... they end up forming a team to support it. It's not about knowing you're on the A-league or not, or implying it or not. That issue, while you're correct about the taboo nature of implying one's team is anything less-than, is very besides the point. It's about how individuals time after time find fulfillment from performing at your (company, in this case) local optimum, with a hearty dose of feelings and actuality of personal autonomy, lack of micromanagement, clear standards that are just far enough of a stretch to be able to be met, etc. The nerdiest of nerds on a CTF team or hackathon will give each other a high five. In turn, to your point, the best players will seek out better teams. It's a primordial behavior, we all do it. There's a wealth of organizational/leadership science out there. It's a fun read that unlike many social sciences, actually has a pretty well proven lemmas behind it, which control for personality types across the spectrum. The military is a one great source of this, flat orgs are another, and everything in between still displays the same behavior (for orgs that do "well"). The behavior and incentives of A->Z people in high performing, high satisfaction environments tend to be very similar, just the implementation is a little different depending on specific org charts.
- netcan 6y ago
  I'm not sure we disagree all that significantly. ;) I didn't mean to imply that we don't work in, join or even thrive in "teams." I meant the elite sports team analogy is a bad idea, usually. That's the analogy I netflix is going for, I believe. They meant it in that context, as you said: There's no shame in getting cut, and you should be proud that you had the talent to perform at our level for the time you did. All this has to be thought of as a management philosophy, because that's what it is. A Theory Of How We Do Things Here." Most os the time, work isn't sports-like. Objectivity is one fundamental difference, and actually running things like a sports team requires it. Hackathons are done to create sports-like scenarios on occasion. Trying to go past that, objectivity ends up biting you. ... you'll end up with productivity measures or some other low-autonomy management style. This was my point about taboo. It's an example of reality leaking into the metaphor, making it unsustainable. Companies mostly don't operate in objective scenarios. Contribution is very difficult to ascertain, especially for the kind of work that requires elite performance. Ultimately, a sports team is the way it is because of what it is. A team of artists shouldn't try to organise like a team of rowers or a software team like a sales team. Incidentally, many sales teams run exactly like netflix aspires to... and without much effort. Their reality is objective. A 10X salesman can actually earn 10X, like an elite athlete does. There are elite teams and it is prestigious to have a stint there, even though most don't last.

hanoz 6y ago

> and you should be proud that you had the talent to perform at our level for the time you did. My main takeaway is: they sound a bit bloody full of themselves.

conductr 6y ago
Shouldn't they be? They actively try their hardest to hire the best and they are honest on the re-balancing they do. It's an alpha mentality.
- dogman144 6y ago
  yeah I'd say the track record of ex-Netflix'ers, the comp they say they pay (top of market for your individual skillset), and supporting evidence seems to indicate they walk the talk. Not for everyone though.
- chrismarlow9 6y ago
  I'd agree with you. Like it or not netflix changed the watch online/VOD industry the way the iphone changed the cellphone industry.

sjtindell 6y ago

Much respect to Netflix, I hear nothing but good things culture and engineering wise. My last manager interviewed with them and said they gave him a 90+ frame PowerPoint on “the Netflix way“.

afterburner 6y ago
Um... was it a good presentation? Or just a load of brainwashing horseshit?
- sjtindell 6y ago
  Sounded solid. On the one hand I’m sure that it can be nonsense, but having been through organizations without that kind of direction I appreciate it.

agd621 6y ago

Well don’t stop there with the analogy. Give me life changing income, public exposure to entice lucrative side hustles, a union with 49% of revenue to employees, and an off-season.

artsyca 6y ago
I hear you bro then we can call ourselves a professional team -- don't even stop there! Let's dress as a team and wear a uniform too I mean that with no hint of sarcasm most people can't draw the line between casual and toxic but it's obvious to anyone with any real professional experience outside of the silicon valley bubble
TulliusCicero 6y ago
For the average person, the amount of money Netflix pays its engineers is absolutely life changing. Even if you have to live in the hideously expensive bay area to get it. Levels.fyi says the average compensation is...450k. But that's for the entire software engineer job ladder, so it's probably skewed upwards somewhat. Still, a median of 250-350k would still be a ton of money.
- dogman144 6y ago
  They pay top-of-band on an annual re-evaluation basis and offer an all cash <-> all equity choice. So pairing that down to the low end new grad scale at Big N ($150, $180k?), but getting that TC in all cash vs. the $120k base, $30k vested equity combos out there, is really life changing.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    I don't think the cash vs stock thing changes the calculus much. You could just sell what stock you get anyway (I have mine at Google set to autosell at vest).
- netcan 6y ago
  Even so, I'll point out that this elite sports teams pay more than just 2X-3X more than average ones. For all the talk of "talent" in this industry, it doesn't work like a talent industry. Where engineers do earn major salaries, it's usually on account of the managerial element and not the engineering one. Lawyering is a talent industry, for example. Top lawyers in top firms do earn on a scale as disparate as pro athletes. The top lawyers may manage people, but their high salaries are for lawyering. The creative industries work that way, obviously. Engineering is structurally more like accounting.

afterburner 6y ago

The athletes they and their victims are thinking of when spouting that shitty metaphor make a minimum of a million dollars a year, enough to carry them through the hardships of constantly fighting for their position.

2019-nCoV 6y ago

Great to see Netflix hasn't shun meritocratic values.