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> The number of universities where you can actually become a good engineer is really small, apart from the IIT/NIT/BITS/IIIT, the rest can be categorized into m

> The number of universities where you can actually become a good engineer is really small, apart from the IIT/NIT/BITS/IIIT, the rest can be categorized into mediocre to astonishingly bad. I wonder why this is. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to teach basic CS well, nor would I think that India would lack for competent people able to teach this way. Does this occur in other parts of Indian society? For example, is it like this in medicine? Or food processing?

triceratops 6y ago
> It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to teach basic CS well Why do you think so? If anything it's harder than doing a regular programming job, because in addition to knowing CS, you have to know how to teach. And programming pays better than teaching.
- bsder 6y ago
  > And programming pays better than teaching. Let's quantify that since most people don't understand just how bad the discrepancy is. A lecturer in CS might get $4000 for a semester. That's 12+weeks at 40 hours a week of work preparing the lectures, grading, preparing tests, and answering student questions via email. Not joking. That's right around minimum wage in most civilized places in the US (about $8 an hour). I presume the discrepancy is much worse in other countries.
- downerending 6y ago
  I have taught CS, and I'm not sure I'd say it's harder or easier than a straight programming job. It's certainly different. Teaching definitely is an independent skill. But on the other hand, there are a very large set of skills that are part of being a professional programmer that are never really touched on in an academic CS program. Based on the above description, though, the issue doesn't seem to be that CS education there is mediocre, but rather than it is abysmal. Not sure what to make of that.
muststopmyths 6y ago
I spent a good half hour composing a reply and then I decided to defer to the expertise of someone who's spent the last decade and half grappling with the Indian education system. Full disclosure: The author is a friend. https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/9B4x2LbRpZuwuFz72g9f3O/The-crisis-in-higher-education.html https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/9B4x2LbRpZuwuFz72g9f3O/The-... https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/RybPVLh2hlTYsSBycUIzgM/The-rot-in-higher-education-is-deep-and-wide.html https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/RybPVLh2hlTYsSBycUIzgM/The-... (edit removed an irrelevant link)
sn41 6y ago
There is a crisp answer: the disparity in pay between the tech sector and teaching jobs. When you get 3-4 times the pay in a software job, only the desperate and the dedicated opt for teaching. That is a recipe for disaster. Dedicated teachers might demand more pay, so it is mostly people who can't find a tech job for the moment, and are desperately unhappy to teach, and ready to flee as soon as they get a software developer position.
- downerending 6y ago
  Put another way, why is this problem worse in India than it is in the US? Those factors would seem to apply more-or-less equally in both places.
  - sn41 6y ago
    In the US, for-profit education (Univ. of Phoenix-type) is equally bad. I think there is a report by former Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) from circa 2011 on this. [1] But almost no US educational institute is for-profit, many run on endowments. The teaching faculty often have PhDs. The faculty in CSE even in teaching colleges have had post graduate education, often involving research. The teaching staff in Indian for-profit colleges are essentially the stragglers among the UGs from similar for-profit colleges. Poor pay with a shoestring staff willing to work for that pay is part of the business model. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/07/30/harkin-releases-critical-report-profits https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/07/30/harkin-releas...

triceratops 6y ago

> It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to teach basic CS well Why do you think so? If anything it's harder than doing a regular programming job, because in addition to knowing CS, you have to know how to teach. And programming pays better than teaching.

bsder 6y ago
> And programming pays better than teaching. Let's quantify that since most people don't understand just how bad the discrepancy is. A lecturer in CS might get $4000 for a semester. That's 12+weeks at 40 hours a week of work preparing the lectures, grading, preparing tests, and answering student questions via email. Not joking. That's right around minimum wage in most civilized places in the US (about $8 an hour). I presume the discrepancy is much worse in other countries.
downerending 6y ago
I have taught CS, and I'm not sure I'd say it's harder or easier than a straight programming job. It's certainly different. Teaching definitely is an independent skill. But on the other hand, there are a very large set of skills that are part of being a professional programmer that are never really touched on in an academic CS program. Based on the above description, though, the issue doesn't seem to be that CS education there is mediocre, but rather than it is abysmal. Not sure what to make of that.

muststopmyths 6y ago

I spent a good half hour composing a reply and then I decided to defer to the expertise of someone who's spent the last decade and half grappling with the Indian education system. Full disclosure: The author is a friend. https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/9B4x2LbRpZuwuFz72g9f3O/The-crisis-in-higher-education.html https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/9B4x2LbRpZuwuFz72g9f3O/The-... https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/RybPVLh2hlTYsSBycUIzgM/The-rot-in-higher-education-is-deep-and-wide.html https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/RybPVLh2hlTYsSBycUIzgM/The-... (edit removed an irrelevant link)

sn41 6y ago

There is a crisp answer: the disparity in pay between the tech sector and teaching jobs. When you get 3-4 times the pay in a software job, only the desperate and the dedicated opt for teaching. That is a recipe for disaster. Dedicated teachers might demand more pay, so it is mostly people who can't find a tech job for the moment, and are desperately unhappy to teach, and ready to flee as soon as they get a software developer position.

downerending 6y ago
Put another way, why is this problem worse in India than it is in the US? Those factors would seem to apply more-or-less equally in both places.
- sn41 6y ago
  In the US, for-profit education (Univ. of Phoenix-type) is equally bad. I think there is a report by former Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) from circa 2011 on this. [1] But almost no US educational institute is for-profit, many run on endowments. The teaching faculty often have PhDs. The faculty in CSE even in teaching colleges have had post graduate education, often involving research. The teaching staff in Indian for-profit colleges are essentially the stragglers among the UGs from similar for-profit colleges. Poor pay with a shoestring staff willing to work for that pay is part of the business model. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/07/30/harkin-releases-critical-report-profits https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/07/30/harkin-releas...