6 ms·

"We are a family" is bullshit. You need to be a pretty egregious repeat offender to be ostracized from a real family. A company can fire you on a whim, simply b

by papito 6y ago

"We are a family" is bullshit. You need to be a pretty egregious repeat offender to be ostracized from a real family. A company can fire you on a whim, simply because someone with a business degree sorted a spreadsheet with salaries in descending order, and you were in the top 20. The more correct analogy is a sports team. Everyone works well together to win the medal, but it's much more pragmatic in that sense. Perhaps back in the age of B&W TV, when people could spend their entire life with a company, it was sort of more true. You had that one job, you had your pension. It was really like a second family, an getting let go was like death. I am beginning to see that nowadays, even full time jobs are becoming essentially contract gigs with better benefits. You should treat it as such anyway. Be professional, be good at what you do, but also be detached and non-emotional about it. It can end at any second. What you take from a job is not that you were "like a family". What you take from it is the experience, what you have learned from your own mistakes, and most importantly - friendships. The rest is ephemeral like a docker container. Be ready for it to go POOF.

kevmo314 6y ago
I like the sports team analogy. The biggest gripe I have with some people is the "you are not my friend and will never be my friend" attitude because they have a strict work/life separation. It would be nice if more people instead thought of work like a sports team where the working together aspect could disappear overnight, but we're still friends.
- und3rth3iP 6y ago
  I've worked with one of these people. Never attended a single off-site work event, even when it took place during work hours. And then he was shocked when he went for a promotion and it didn't happen. It was a topic of discussion among the management team and a big con on his pro/con list. Since it was a small company (25 people), it was decidedly weird he refused to take part in culture. That said, culture shouldn't be forced. I think employees should be given multiple ways to participate to find a way that is most comfortable to them.
  - ThrowawayP 6y ago
    One of the harshest lessons I, as an introvert, have learned over the course of my career is the necessity of going in and putting up the appearance of being jovial at team and corporate social events, no matter uncomfortable and draining I find it. To do otherwise is to risk my bonuses and my employment.
    - DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
      I've experienced that as well. An additional challenge for me is that I don't like the taste of alcohol, and having even a little makes me do/say things that I later regret. So even when I do show up at company social events, I feel even more like an outsider. It's hard to stay engaged at a job where all of these team-building events / milestone-celebrations make me feel lonely and excluded.
      - savrajsingh 6y ago
        It is a shame that group indulgence in alcohol is often the measure of how 'cool' someone is. More and more people are going 'straightedge'... My advice is just carry yourself with confidence -- don't shy away from your choices, own them.
        papito 6y ago
        Small team lunches - 4 people, 6 people max, are great for bonding, since not everyone can go hang out in bars after work.
        und3rth3iP 6y ago
        100%. As a manager when we were still in a physical office, I encouraged small group lunches, coffee outings, walks to a nearby dog park, etc. Way too much company socializing still centers on alcohol. I actually had to push back on our in-office boozy happy hours because a few team members were getting too drunk and it was making other people uncomfortable. My boss didn't think it'd seem "cool" if we put together a policy for how these happy hours should be handled. I don't work there anymore. :)
dogman144 6y ago
I recently read Netflix's culture doc, and they outright said they treat employees like a sports team - welcome to the team, perform at your best, you may get benched, you may get cut. There's no shame in getting cut, and you should be proud that you had the talent to perform at our level for the time you did. My main takeaway was: fair enough, and when can I get into that interview pipeline. I want to be on a meat-eating, high performing team with comp to match, and I don't want much more. I think most in the industry are the same.
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  That is actually a pretty reasonable take in my opinion. And refreshing. Having been on [edit: sports] teams before, it can be a toxic situation or it can be absolutely amazing and life-affirming. It might sound cold in the language, but it can be so rewarding, so bonding. It's definitely a better analogy than family. Family is family. You can define it as you like, but nothing equates.
  - dogman144 6y ago
    For sure! I've spent time in orgs that do this approach inherently, and it's tremendously fulfilling, more than ping pong tables and after-work beers ever could be. Shared hardship and superior performance that is greater than the sum of a team's individual talents are tremendous motivators and a dominant source of personal fulfillment. There's a bit of a challenge to get people to seek this environment out, but setting the tone from the top, as Netflix does, is a Step 0 to achieving it.
- netcan 6y ago
  There's something unsustainable about a "team" analogy... just as there is in a family one. Netflix may be the rare example where an elite sports team analogy applies, but... That can't be more than a rare exception. Ultimately, sports is different just like family is different and the way those things work relate to those differences. Sports is objective. Work isn't. Managers, players & spectators all know if they're playing in the A-league or the local league. In workplace culture, implying that you're not in the A-league is taboo. Remember that "elite" means very rare, and usually short lived.
ryanwaggoner 6y ago
You need to be a pretty egregious repeat offender to be ostracized from a real family Or have a shitty family. A lot of “black sheep” out there are actually the relatively normal ones.
netcan 6y ago
Well... "team" isn't even an analogy. It literally means a group working together. Sports teams are an instance. OTOH... our gut-definition of teams is a pretty tight group working very cooperatively. It definitely doesn't feel right to describe Microsoft as a "team," family or whatever. Anyway, I disagree... kinda. I agree that "We are a family" is bullshit, but I don't think "detached and non-emotional" is a viable strategy. We humans can't be detached and unemotional about such a major thing in our life. That road leads to misery.... which is where a lot of us are in our work lives.
airstrike 6y ago
> simply because someone with a business degree You say that like having a business degree is almost something to be ashamed of, or a lesser degree relative to perhaps "computer engineers" and "computer scientists"

by papito 6y ago

kevmo314 6y ago

I like the sports team analogy. The biggest gripe I have with some people is the "you are not my friend and will never be my friend" attitude because they have a strict work/life separation. It would be nice if more people instead thought of work like a sports team where the working together aspect could disappear overnight, but we're still friends.

und3rth3iP 6y ago
I've worked with one of these people. Never attended a single off-site work event, even when it took place during work hours. And then he was shocked when he went for a promotion and it didn't happen. It was a topic of discussion among the management team and a big con on his pro/con list. Since it was a small company (25 people), it was decidedly weird he refused to take part in culture. That said, culture shouldn't be forced. I think employees should be given multiple ways to participate to find a way that is most comfortable to them.
- ThrowawayP 6y ago
  One of the harshest lessons I, as an introvert, have learned over the course of my career is the necessity of going in and putting up the appearance of being jovial at team and corporate social events, no matter uncomfortable and draining I find it. To do otherwise is to risk my bonuses and my employment.
  - DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
    I've experienced that as well. An additional challenge for me is that I don't like the taste of alcohol, and having even a little makes me do/say things that I later regret. So even when I do show up at company social events, I feel even more like an outsider. It's hard to stay engaged at a job where all of these team-building events / milestone-celebrations make me feel lonely and excluded.
    - savrajsingh 6y ago
      It is a shame that group indulgence in alcohol is often the measure of how 'cool' someone is. More and more people are going 'straightedge'... My advice is just carry yourself with confidence -- don't shy away from your choices, own them.
      - papito 6y ago
        Small team lunches - 4 people, 6 people max, are great for bonding, since not everyone can go hang out in bars after work.
        und3rth3iP 6y ago
        100%. As a manager when we were still in a physical office, I encouraged small group lunches, coffee outings, walks to a nearby dog park, etc. Way too much company socializing still centers on alcohol. I actually had to push back on our in-office boozy happy hours because a few team members were getting too drunk and it was making other people uncomfortable. My boss didn't think it'd seem "cool" if we put together a policy for how these happy hours should be handled. I don't work there anymore. :)

dogman144 6y ago

I recently read Netflix's culture doc, and they outright said they treat employees like a sports team - welcome to the team, perform at your best, you may get benched, you may get cut. There's no shame in getting cut, and you should be proud that you had the talent to perform at our level for the time you did. My main takeaway was: fair enough, and when can I get into that interview pipeline. I want to be on a meat-eating, high performing team with comp to match, and I don't want much more. I think most in the industry are the same.

52-6F-62 6y ago
That is actually a pretty reasonable take in my opinion. And refreshing. Having been on [edit: sports] teams before, it can be a toxic situation or it can be absolutely amazing and life-affirming. It might sound cold in the language, but it can be so rewarding, so bonding. It's definitely a better analogy than family. Family is family. You can define it as you like, but nothing equates.
- dogman144 6y ago
  For sure! I've spent time in orgs that do this approach inherently, and it's tremendously fulfilling, more than ping pong tables and after-work beers ever could be. Shared hardship and superior performance that is greater than the sum of a team's individual talents are tremendous motivators and a dominant source of personal fulfillment. There's a bit of a challenge to get people to seek this environment out, but setting the tone from the top, as Netflix does, is a Step 0 to achieving it.
netcan 6y ago
There's something unsustainable about a "team" analogy... just as there is in a family one. Netflix may be the rare example where an elite sports team analogy applies, but... That can't be more than a rare exception. Ultimately, sports is different just like family is different and the way those things work relate to those differences. Sports is objective. Work isn't. Managers, players & spectators all know if they're playing in the A-league or the local league. In workplace culture, implying that you're not in the A-league is taboo. Remember that "elite" means very rare, and usually short lived.

ryanwaggoner 6y ago

You need to be a pretty egregious repeat offender to be ostracized from a real family Or have a shitty family. A lot of “black sheep” out there are actually the relatively normal ones.

netcan 6y ago

Well... "team" isn't even an analogy. It literally means a group working together. Sports teams are an instance. OTOH... our gut-definition of teams is a pretty tight group working very cooperatively. It definitely doesn't feel right to describe Microsoft as a "team," family or whatever. Anyway, I disagree... kinda. I agree that "We are a family" is bullshit, but I don't think "detached and non-emotional" is a viable strategy. We humans can't be detached and unemotional about such a major thing in our life. That road leads to misery.... which is where a lot of us are in our work lives.

airstrike 6y ago

> simply because someone with a business degree You say that like having a business degree is almost something to be ashamed of, or a lesser degree relative to perhaps "computer engineers" and "computer scientists"