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I've always got the feeling that MS specific developers are highly visual studio oriented. They have their connection string built into the IDE. In fact, if you

I've always got the feeling that MS specific developers are highly visual studio oriented. They have their connection string built into the IDE. In fact, if you asked them to make something that builds from the command line, and runs, they would probably be scratching their head for a while. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find some windows based companies that have classic windows VMs in the cloud, running Visual Studio, and production deployments are: RDP in, stopping with the little red button, updating the codebase (with a copy over a network share), and then re-running the code on the production server with the little green play button. Database changes are done by hand in SQL Server Manager. I know this isn't at all related to the post here - but it's just an interesting phenomenon - the fact that Azure is about 50 percent windows means it's mostly running things like Office backend products, crazy running copies of Visual Studio. It is probably a total mess if half of Azure goes down for 5 minutes. Linux servers would come back up and continue running whatever. All the Windows companies get a call, have to RDP in and do shit.

NicoJuicy 6y ago
I'm one "visual studio Dev" I have also build in Go, nodejs, Php, RoR. But VS is truelly the best IDE experience I have witnessed. Database changes are automatically migrated and deployed using entity framework fyi. The big deployment button changes the connection string per deployment, deploys with feature flags directly and automatically migrates the db to the latest version
- addicted44 6y ago
  It's kind of funny to see the disdain for VS based deployment here, while all the current rage right now is declarative deployment systems. Something VS based development, build and deployment based workflows have been doing for over a decade through the largely Web..config files and .csproj files.
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    Indeed, it's really powerfull. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/host-and-deploy/iis/transform-webconfig?view=aspnetcore-3.1 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/host-and-deploy...
- zeroc8 6y ago
  Using it on a huge MFC application was the worst IDE experience I've ever had. So much time wasted on waiting for the thing doing it's job. That said, it's a lot better when used with a modern language like C#. But still dog slow. Nowadays even Java based IDEs feel snappier. And that says a lot.
GordonS 6y ago
> I've always got the feeling that MS specific developers are highly visual studio oriented. They have their connection string built into the IDE. In fact, if you asked them to make something that builds from the command line, and runs, they would probably be scratching their head for a while. That might have been true once, but I think Microsoft-stack devs are a lot more command line savvy these days. The move towards DevOps and scripting makes the command line much more necessary, and makes the benefits of the command line clear. The move towards cloud has introduced Linux to a lot more organisations, yes, even Microsoft shops.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  That might have been true once, but I think Microsoft-stack devs are a lot more command line savvy these days. I don't think it's ever been that true. It's just a handy stick for some people to bash their perceived out-group.
  - mixmastamyk 6y ago
    For decades the cli interface on Windows was neglected on purpose, and it showed. Sure you could hobble along, but I don’t blame folks who didn’t.
stinos 6y ago
I've always got the feeling that MS specific developers are highly visual studio oriented This and the rest of your post is about one specific kind of developer, and I honestly wonder how you can think that's it.. Lack of experience or just bad luck and only ever met this kind perhaps? Anyway while I know for a fact these exist, your feeling is sort of wrong in that there are also developers who just use VS as the IDE it is (to write code and debug; it's good at that) and for the rest automate build environment setup, deployment and whatnot just like you'd do on another OS. I just don't know the numbers, i.e. which share of developers using VS act like you describe. It's not like using VS somehow makes people blind for concepts like CI. Data point: we have a bunch of scripts (combination of PowerShell/Python/MSbuild) which will install and setup the complete build environment from scratch (VS/Miniconda3/Vcpkg/...) checkout all code (yes from git, not from a network share), build a myriad of different flavors of the product, package it; all in one commandline command.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  One example, when you install many applications, even automated via cli, it will open a gui progress bar. Python used to do this, it still may.
  - stinos 6y ago
    If the gui doesn't actually require interaction that doesn't really matter, does it? But most installations have a silent mode where they do not show a gui. All of the aforementioned applications are installed like that (inluding Miniconda i.e. Python), as is common when installing via package management in Powershell.
shawxe 6y ago
Obviously anecdotal, but in my personal experience this is pretty close to the truth.
tomc1985 6y ago
Is it any better than SSH'ing into a server and "services stop mybusinessapp; update.sh; services start mybusinessapp"? I'm detecting a bit of disdain for the VS world
- fomine3 6y ago
  manual ssh operation looks not better
mmcconnell1618 6y ago
The Visual Studio ecosystem has supported command line builds for a long time. msbuild commands are run by Visual Studio and display right in the console. The .NET Core stack is also very command line first designed. I think what you're noticing is that Visual Studio makes it easier for point-and-click developers to participate while a bash shell takes a little more effort to learn. You can have poor developers in both worlds or great developers in both worlds.
FridgeSeal 6y ago
> In fact, if you asked them to make something that builds from the command line, and runs, they would probably be scratching their head for a while. As someone who learnt to program using linux/Mac OS, when I got a job somewhere that used windows and VS exclusively, trying to get my head around the (to me) needlessly confusing and convoluted way in which windows-dotnet devs seemed to do things was a painful experience. Watching some of them try and debug docker files was amusing because that was a total role reversal.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

I'm one "visual studio Dev" I have also build in Go, nodejs, Php, RoR. But VS is truelly the best IDE experience I have witnessed. Database changes are automatically migrated and deployed using entity framework fyi. The big deployment button changes the connection string per deployment, deploys with feature flags directly and automatically migrates the db to the latest version

addicted44 6y ago
It's kind of funny to see the disdain for VS based deployment here, while all the current rage right now is declarative deployment systems. Something VS based development, build and deployment based workflows have been doing for over a decade through the largely Web..config files and .csproj files.
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  Indeed, it's really powerfull. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/host-and-deploy/iis/transform-webconfig?view=aspnetcore-3.1 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/host-and-deploy...
zeroc8 6y ago
Using it on a huge MFC application was the worst IDE experience I've ever had. So much time wasted on waiting for the thing doing it's job. That said, it's a lot better when used with a modern language like C#. But still dog slow. Nowadays even Java based IDEs feel snappier. And that says a lot.

GordonS 6y ago

> I've always got the feeling that MS specific developers are highly visual studio oriented. They have their connection string built into the IDE. In fact, if you asked them to make something that builds from the command line, and runs, they would probably be scratching their head for a while. That might have been true once, but I think Microsoft-stack devs are a lot more command line savvy these days. The move towards DevOps and scripting makes the command line much more necessary, and makes the benefits of the command line clear. The move towards cloud has introduced Linux to a lot more organisations, yes, even Microsoft shops.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
That might have been true once, but I think Microsoft-stack devs are a lot more command line savvy these days. I don't think it's ever been that true. It's just a handy stick for some people to bash their perceived out-group.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  For decades the cli interface on Windows was neglected on purpose, and it showed. Sure you could hobble along, but I don’t blame folks who didn’t.

stinos 6y ago

I've always got the feeling that MS specific developers are highly visual studio oriented This and the rest of your post is about one specific kind of developer, and I honestly wonder how you can think that's it.. Lack of experience or just bad luck and only ever met this kind perhaps? Anyway while I know for a fact these exist, your feeling is sort of wrong in that there are also developers who just use VS as the IDE it is (to write code and debug; it's good at that) and for the rest automate build environment setup, deployment and whatnot just like you'd do on another OS. I just don't know the numbers, i.e. which share of developers using VS act like you describe. It's not like using VS somehow makes people blind for concepts like CI. Data point: we have a bunch of scripts (combination of PowerShell/Python/MSbuild) which will install and setup the complete build environment from scratch (VS/Miniconda3/Vcpkg/...) checkout all code (yes from git, not from a network share), build a myriad of different flavors of the product, package it; all in one commandline command.

mixmastamyk 6y ago
One example, when you install many applications, even automated via cli, it will open a gui progress bar. Python used to do this, it still may.
- stinos 6y ago
  If the gui doesn't actually require interaction that doesn't really matter, does it? But most installations have a silent mode where they do not show a gui. All of the aforementioned applications are installed like that (inluding Miniconda i.e. Python), as is common when installing via package management in Powershell.

shawxe 6y ago

Obviously anecdotal, but in my personal experience this is pretty close to the truth.

tomc1985 6y ago

Is it any better than SSH'ing into a server and "services stop mybusinessapp; update.sh; services start mybusinessapp"? I'm detecting a bit of disdain for the VS world

fomine3 6y ago
manual ssh operation looks not better

mmcconnell1618 6y ago

The Visual Studio ecosystem has supported command line builds for a long time. msbuild commands are run by Visual Studio and display right in the console. The .NET Core stack is also very command line first designed. I think what you're noticing is that Visual Studio makes it easier for point-and-click developers to participate while a bash shell takes a little more effort to learn. You can have poor developers in both worlds or great developers in both worlds.

FridgeSeal 6y ago

> In fact, if you asked them to make something that builds from the command line, and runs, they would probably be scratching their head for a while. As someone who learnt to program using linux/Mac OS, when I got a job somewhere that used windows and VS exclusively, trying to get my head around the (to me) needlessly confusing and convoluted way in which windows-dotnet devs seemed to do things was a painful experience. Watching some of them try and debug docker files was amusing because that was a total role reversal.