4 ms·

tax payers -> fed govt -> "the fed" -> blackrock inc -> corporate ETFs -> american corporations which tax structure is in ireland.

dmillar 6y ago
The first link here is more aptly Japan and China. And, to make this really circular, Ireland also is one of the largest holders of US debt.
- FriendlyNormie 6y ago
  Ah yes, the dreaded Irish run the world from the shadows, not Jews.
- bcrosby95 6y ago
  Note that most government debt is owned by taxpayers in one form or another though. China and Japan are very large foreign owners though.
  - dmillar 6y ago
    Japan is actually the largest, fwiw. These Fed programs are being financed by debt spending, not tax increases. So even if some of this debt is held by US tax payers, it's not at their expense. They're getting paid interest.
    - dtwest 6y ago
      Debt spending tends to turn into tax increases if you actually plan on paying the money back
      - outside1234 6y ago
        The end game here is inflation. Which, in the long run, will also make the stock market, and their options increase, as revenue and profit inflate. But not in the short term.
      - drdec 6y ago
        Except that the Fed is buying bonds that pay a higher rate that they borrow at (U.S. Treasury rate). So unless there is a lot of defaulting, they should be fine. It's like they are mortgaging the White House at 0.25% and buying bonds that pay 4%.
      - thephyber 6y ago
        Not necessarily. If the economy grows faster than recent history, a constant tax rate brings in more revenue. Also worth looking at the last time the USA completely paid off its government debt. > On January 8, 1835, president Andrew Jackson paid off the entire national debt, the only time in U.S. history that has been accomplished. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_public_debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_p...
        dtwest 6y ago
        Yes, well actually if the economy grows at all, a constant tax rate brings in more revenue, while we tend to spend more too. But I agree it is theoretically possible. In Andrew Jackson's case they also raised taxes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_Abominations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_Abominations
- luckylion 6y ago
  So it's US corporations moving their international earnings to Ireland and using the cash they keep there to buy US Treasurys, because they don't have that many things to invest in and they can't pay out dividends because they don't want to repatriate and pay taxes?
- thephyber 6y ago
  Of $23+ trillion of US government debt, the largest foreign government debtors are {Japan with $1.27 trillion, China with $1.09 trillion, UK with $0.40 trillion}.[1] Ireland owns about 0.1% of US securities debt ($0.28 trillion)[1]. That's a _very_ low circular factor. [1] https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124 https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-33...
- athriren 6y ago
  The largest holder of US debt is the US federal government. The debt is owed by us to ourselves. It is just numbers in accounts. The conception of federal debt as some giant anvil hanging over our heads is not correct. Foreign holdings only account for about a third of all obligations, which the US could—but will never, for obvious reasons—unilaterally take off its books and ask anyone who has an issue with it to take it up with the DoD.
  - anm89 6y ago
    This is utter nonsense. Just because American national debt is held by American citizens and corporations doesn't mean its not real or that it could just be canceled out on paper and it wouldn't matter. Those debts are projected future incomes for those other people\companies and if they magically disappear some parties would end up very badly screwed. This narrative, while often repeated, is nonsense.
yborg 6y ago
They don't really have to be American, just organized in the US and having "significant US operations." So American Honda, for example, can now be funded by the US government. Since it's an indirect funding facility, these company bond issues can be used for stock buybacks, i.e. executive comp so the taxpayer doesn't just subsidize executive compensation via the capital gains rate, it now can fund it directly. The smart money never wastes a good crisis!
kolbe 6y ago
This is what bothers me about USA 2020. We thoroughly divided due to relatively small differences in political options, but the real division that no one seems to care about is the political elites stealing money from the poor and middle class. We draw political allegiances so arbitrarily, and totally ignore that it's BOTH parties renewing the PATRIOT Act (which is happening now), and both parties giving our tax dollars to their friends.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  People are starting to care. In 2016 Bernie almost got elected on this platform, Trump did get elected on this platform, and in 2020 the DNC had to throw an election just to keep Bernie at bay.
  - q92z8oeif 6y ago
    and still, not a tiny dent in the two party system. Which proves that your history is anecdotal with very little (none?) significance statistically.
- Aunche 6y ago
  There is a growing divide because people can't help but cherry pick anything that fits their narrative. The government is spending hundreds of billions on unemployment, direct stimulus, and keeping people on payroll, but the only thing liberals have to say is that the money isn't enough and coming too slowly. I'm liberal myself and I can see why people feel frustrated, but I can also see why so many conservatives feel like progressives are being entitled.
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    Conservatives: we're printing $5300 per capita, $1200 of which goes to working people and $4100 goes to the market/rich and the working people still want more?! Such entitlement!
    - mrosett 6y ago

dmillar 6y ago

The first link here is more aptly Japan and China. And, to make this really circular, Ireland also is one of the largest holders of US debt.

FriendlyNormie 6y ago
Ah yes, the dreaded Irish run the world from the shadows, not Jews.
bcrosby95 6y ago
Note that most government debt is owned by taxpayers in one form or another though. China and Japan are very large foreign owners though.
- dmillar 6y ago
  Japan is actually the largest, fwiw. These Fed programs are being financed by debt spending, not tax increases. So even if some of this debt is held by US tax payers, it's not at their expense. They're getting paid interest.
  - dtwest 6y ago
    Debt spending tends to turn into tax increases if you actually plan on paying the money back
    - outside1234 6y ago
      The end game here is inflation. Which, in the long run, will also make the stock market, and their options increase, as revenue and profit inflate. But not in the short term.
    - drdec 6y ago
      Except that the Fed is buying bonds that pay a higher rate that they borrow at (U.S. Treasury rate). So unless there is a lot of defaulting, they should be fine. It's like they are mortgaging the White House at 0.25% and buying bonds that pay 4%.
    - thephyber 6y ago
      Not necessarily. If the economy grows faster than recent history, a constant tax rate brings in more revenue. Also worth looking at the last time the USA completely paid off its government debt. > On January 8, 1835, president Andrew Jackson paid off the entire national debt, the only time in U.S. history that has been accomplished. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_public_debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_p...
      - dtwest 6y ago
        Yes, well actually if the economy grows at all, a constant tax rate brings in more revenue, while we tend to spend more too. But I agree it is theoretically possible. In Andrew Jackson's case they also raised taxes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_Abominations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_Abominations
luckylion 6y ago
So it's US corporations moving their international earnings to Ireland and using the cash they keep there to buy US Treasurys, because they don't have that many things to invest in and they can't pay out dividends because they don't want to repatriate and pay taxes?
thephyber 6y ago
Of $23+ trillion of US government debt, the largest foreign government debtors are {Japan with $1.27 trillion, China with $1.09 trillion, UK with $0.40 trillion}.[1] Ireland owns about 0.1% of US securities debt ($0.28 trillion)[1]. That's a _very_ low circular factor. [1] https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124 https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-33...
athriren 6y ago
The largest holder of US debt is the US federal government. The debt is owed by us to ourselves. It is just numbers in accounts. The conception of federal debt as some giant anvil hanging over our heads is not correct. Foreign holdings only account for about a third of all obligations, which the US could—but will never, for obvious reasons—unilaterally take off its books and ask anyone who has an issue with it to take it up with the DoD.
- anm89 6y ago
  This is utter nonsense. Just because American national debt is held by American citizens and corporations doesn't mean its not real or that it could just be canceled out on paper and it wouldn't matter. Those debts are projected future incomes for those other people\companies and if they magically disappear some parties would end up very badly screwed. This narrative, while often repeated, is nonsense.

yborg 6y ago

They don't really have to be American, just organized in the US and having "significant US operations." So American Honda, for example, can now be funded by the US government. Since it's an indirect funding facility, these company bond issues can be used for stock buybacks, i.e. executive comp so the taxpayer doesn't just subsidize executive compensation via the capital gains rate, it now can fund it directly. The smart money never wastes a good crisis!

kolbe 6y ago

This is what bothers me about USA 2020. We thoroughly divided due to relatively small differences in political options, but the real division that no one seems to care about is the political elites stealing money from the poor and middle class. We draw political allegiances so arbitrarily, and totally ignore that it's BOTH parties renewing the PATRIOT Act (which is happening now), and both parties giving our tax dollars to their friends.

jjoonathan 6y ago
People are starting to care. In 2016 Bernie almost got elected on this platform, Trump did get elected on this platform, and in 2020 the DNC had to throw an election just to keep Bernie at bay.
- q92z8oeif 6y ago
  and still, not a tiny dent in the two party system. Which proves that your history is anecdotal with very little (none?) significance statistically.
Aunche 6y ago
There is a growing divide because people can't help but cherry pick anything that fits their narrative. The government is spending hundreds of billions on unemployment, direct stimulus, and keeping people on payroll, but the only thing liberals have to say is that the money isn't enough and coming too slowly. I'm liberal myself and I can see why people feel frustrated, but I can also see why so many conservatives feel like progressives are being entitled.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  Conservatives: we're printing $5300 per capita, $1200 of which goes to working people and $4100 goes to the market/rich and the working people still want more?! Such entitlement!
  - mrosett 6y ago