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> I also have a problem with calling developers engineers. I held this point of view for a long time but, after lurking at r/engineering, I've learned that the

> I also have a problem with calling developers engineers. I held this point of view for a long time but, after lurking at r/engineering, I've learned that their jobs are (depressingly) similar to ours. I.e. it's almost never deriving things from first principles, but rather trying to quickly bolt together a solution out of pieces looked up at different vendors' catalogs. Most engineers don't even remember the basic equations they have learned at university. > Heck, I would be offended if someone called me a developer rather than a programmer. It depends on the specific job, but currently, I can spend 30 minutes changing one line of code followed by one week of deploying, testing it, making sure the configs are all right etc. So that's 30 minutes of programming followed by one week of "installing dishwashers" (as the joke on the team goes). Lately, I see myself more of a software configurator than creator (my nominal job title is a backend web developer).

battery_cowboy 6y ago
The new "software engineer" is just a software assembly line worker. I guess the same goes for other engineers. I would imagine the quality of software engineer will get worse over time as it becomes easier to assemble software from an assortment of black boxes.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  Is it getting easier though? Did you try "modern" web development lately? Good luck piecing together a working website...
  - outworlder 6y ago
    It is easier. If you wanted to create a web application from the dotcom era, you could probably knock it out faster by one or two orders of magnitude. It will probably look neater too, and you won't spend days or months tuning it so it will look decent in IE. We even have amazing CSS capabilities now. If you wanted to create something that's better than the pages we had in the Geocities era, you can do that in 5 minutes (download some static page generator, add a theme and voila). When it was unveiled, the GMail frontend was a remarkable feat of engineering. Nowadays? Polishing to that extent (also scaling, etc) will take time, but creating a knockoff UI is no longer a revolutionary job. Most web developers would be able to single-handedly replicate the basic functionality ('ajax' and lots of client side javascript are no longer arcane). As web development progressed, so did expectations.
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      well, so if requirements were easier back then you can't really say things got easier. The stack got harder. you used to be able to get by with asp.net / php and that's it. Yes, you would throw files into ftp and there weren't any stackoverflow or frameworks. But still, the amount of knowledge you needed to keep up was way less than what we have today. My point: 20 years ago you could learn php and make good money. Nowadays you can't get by without a convoluted front end stack as well, which kinda doubles the amount of knowledge you need to carry.
      - battery_cowboy 6y ago
        You can still do simple stuff, it's not hard: just don't use the complex garbage :) I wrote a web app the other day with vanilla Python, it doesn't do much (it's a tasks app for my wife and I), but it does it's job, and in one file even! It doesn't use fancy front end stuff, just HTML template strings and some links that send CRUD ops to the server, then that saves the data in a big text file. It uses CSS to make it look nice. I bet I could get a hundred people using it without edits, and it took a few hours. With a proper database and server, it would support thousands easily.
        joelbluminator 6y ago
        We all do what our managers / tech leads / architects tell us to do in the end of the day. Even if you have a lot of say where you work, eventually you will join a company with an established stack over which you'll have little control. If you're going to do web development there's zero chance you can keep this up forever unless you're working for yourself. Don't get me wrong, I wish the industry would do more of what you're describing, unfortunately it's just not happening.
- int_19h 6y ago
  An assembly line worker just puts parts together - they don't understand why those particular parts have to go together in that particular way to achieve the desired result. Engineer is the person who does. And engineers have always been assembling boxes together. At first those were the most basic components, like levers. Then we figured out about standardized parts and interfaces, and components got a lot less basic. But, fundamentally, what's the difference between an engineer fitting two cogs together, and an engineer fitting two pieces of electronics?
macromagnon 6y ago
Sounds like your job could use devops with some deployment stack. I know the basics of chef/ansible etc but I much prefer traditional dev.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  We have top-notch devops stack, but "thanks" to relying on microservices, a lot of changes in software require changing something in the devops part as well, which takes much longer than writing the software change.
  - iaml 6y ago
    I recently tried nix package manager and I gotta say - if your pain point is devops it could take away a sizeable chunk of problems. Steep learning curve though.

battery_cowboy 6y ago

The new "software engineer" is just a software assembly line worker. I guess the same goes for other engineers. I would imagine the quality of software engineer will get worse over time as it becomes easier to assemble software from an assortment of black boxes.

joelbluminator 6y ago
Is it getting easier though? Did you try "modern" web development lately? Good luck piecing together a working website...
- outworlder 6y ago
  It is easier. If you wanted to create a web application from the dotcom era, you could probably knock it out faster by one or two orders of magnitude. It will probably look neater too, and you won't spend days or months tuning it so it will look decent in IE. We even have amazing CSS capabilities now. If you wanted to create something that's better than the pages we had in the Geocities era, you can do that in 5 minutes (download some static page generator, add a theme and voila). When it was unveiled, the GMail frontend was a remarkable feat of engineering. Nowadays? Polishing to that extent (also scaling, etc) will take time, but creating a knockoff UI is no longer a revolutionary job. Most web developers would be able to single-handedly replicate the basic functionality ('ajax' and lots of client side javascript are no longer arcane). As web development progressed, so did expectations.
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    well, so if requirements were easier back then you can't really say things got easier. The stack got harder. you used to be able to get by with asp.net / php and that's it. Yes, you would throw files into ftp and there weren't any stackoverflow or frameworks. But still, the amount of knowledge you needed to keep up was way less than what we have today. My point: 20 years ago you could learn php and make good money. Nowadays you can't get by without a convoluted front end stack as well, which kinda doubles the amount of knowledge you need to carry.
    - battery_cowboy 6y ago
      You can still do simple stuff, it's not hard: just don't use the complex garbage :) I wrote a web app the other day with vanilla Python, it doesn't do much (it's a tasks app for my wife and I), but it does it's job, and in one file even! It doesn't use fancy front end stuff, just HTML template strings and some links that send CRUD ops to the server, then that saves the data in a big text file. It uses CSS to make it look nice. I bet I could get a hundred people using it without edits, and it took a few hours. With a proper database and server, it would support thousands easily.
      - joelbluminator 6y ago
        We all do what our managers / tech leads / architects tell us to do in the end of the day. Even if you have a lot of say where you work, eventually you will join a company with an established stack over which you'll have little control. If you're going to do web development there's zero chance you can keep this up forever unless you're working for yourself. Don't get me wrong, I wish the industry would do more of what you're describing, unfortunately it's just not happening.
int_19h 6y ago
An assembly line worker just puts parts together - they don't understand why those particular parts have to go together in that particular way to achieve the desired result. Engineer is the person who does. And engineers have always been assembling boxes together. At first those were the most basic components, like levers. Then we figured out about standardized parts and interfaces, and components got a lot less basic. But, fundamentally, what's the difference between an engineer fitting two cogs together, and an engineer fitting two pieces of electronics?

macromagnon 6y ago

Sounds like your job could use devops with some deployment stack. I know the basics of chef/ansible etc but I much prefer traditional dev.

burntoutfire 6y ago
We have top-notch devops stack, but "thanks" to relying on microservices, a lot of changes in software require changing something in the devops part as well, which takes much longer than writing the software change.
- iaml 6y ago
  I recently tried nix package manager and I gotta say - if your pain point is devops it could take away a sizeable chunk of problems. Steep learning curve though.