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I’d prefer to avoid text blob artifacts if this was being used at work with plenty of text blobs to babysit already IMO the end days for TF and YAML engineerin

I’d prefer to avoid text blob artifacts if this was being used at work with plenty of text blobs to babysit already IMO the end days for TF and YAML engineering are close, at least for new work It’s all HTTP APIs. Build a web UX and store the state in a DB. SRE/ops people ...at work just use the methods everyone else does Unless the company still has hardware, cloud ops/SRE is just making their lives harder to be different

mugsie 6y ago
> It’s all HTTP APIs. Build a web UX and store the state in a DB. Please no. Don't make running a stateful service a requirement for tooling people need to use when the world is on fire. Or needs to load 40Mb of JS to rebuild a deployment, and works only on Chrome 46.012.2039465. Ops/SRE/DevOps/SysAdmin/SysOps/etc are different, and have optimised things to reduce the amount of dependancies.
- snejj5 6y ago
  What's the alternative you'd recommend?
  - mugsie 6y ago
    The explicit, declarative model, using tools that don't need a ton of other things deployed. Ideally the same tool can be run locally and in CI (with the same invocation commands) so that an Op can run tests locally, and even see the potential diff, before putting it up for review. The advantage of this approach is you can see a diff, and use standard tooling like git / pr reviews to approve changes in day to day, and when the world is on fire, someone can break the glass and run it locally. Never underestimate the value of peer review on a change to the infra - there is a reason things like ITIL exist, and we should learn from them.
    - subhobroto 6y ago
      > The advantage of this approach is you can see a diff, and use standard tooling like git / pr reviews to approve changes in day to day, and when the world is on fire, someone can break the glass and run it locally. sounds sweet. imagine applying gerrit to infra > there is a reason things like ITIL exist, and we should learn from them spot on. That said, I am unsure if most people here are ITIL aware/certified. TBH, the primary reason why I am familiar with ITIL is our clients from Accenture days requires certification to win contracts.
      - mugsie 6y ago
        > sounds sweet. imagine applying gerrit to infra Yeah, it is cool - https://opendev.org/ https://opendev.org/ is done that way, as is some of the wikimedia labs infrastructure I am not certified either - I have just worked in places with ITIL inspired processes, but I can really see a way they can move forward with tools like terraform / pulumi / ansible and git
kronin 6y ago
There is significant value in text blob workflows. Requiring the definition of everything that makes up your stack to be stored in a format that is not text adds complexity to the disaster recovery process, not to mention mutation, diffing, reviewing, approving, promoting, etc. For places where a single environment that is updated in place and requires little/no approval to do so, sure. Personally I really like textual definition of infrastructure and configuration, and disagree that it is end days for them.

mugsie 6y ago

> It’s all HTTP APIs. Build a web UX and store the state in a DB. Please no. Don't make running a stateful service a requirement for tooling people need to use when the world is on fire. Or needs to load 40Mb of JS to rebuild a deployment, and works only on Chrome 46.012.2039465. Ops/SRE/DevOps/SysAdmin/SysOps/etc are different, and have optimised things to reduce the amount of dependancies.

snejj5 6y ago
What's the alternative you'd recommend?
- mugsie 6y ago
  The explicit, declarative model, using tools that don't need a ton of other things deployed. Ideally the same tool can be run locally and in CI (with the same invocation commands) so that an Op can run tests locally, and even see the potential diff, before putting it up for review. The advantage of this approach is you can see a diff, and use standard tooling like git / pr reviews to approve changes in day to day, and when the world is on fire, someone can break the glass and run it locally. Never underestimate the value of peer review on a change to the infra - there is a reason things like ITIL exist, and we should learn from them.
  - subhobroto 6y ago
    > The advantage of this approach is you can see a diff, and use standard tooling like git / pr reviews to approve changes in day to day, and when the world is on fire, someone can break the glass and run it locally. sounds sweet. imagine applying gerrit to infra > there is a reason things like ITIL exist, and we should learn from them spot on. That said, I am unsure if most people here are ITIL aware/certified. TBH, the primary reason why I am familiar with ITIL is our clients from Accenture days requires certification to win contracts.
    - mugsie 6y ago
      > sounds sweet. imagine applying gerrit to infra Yeah, it is cool - https://opendev.org/ https://opendev.org/ is done that way, as is some of the wikimedia labs infrastructure I am not certified either - I have just worked in places with ITIL inspired processes, but I can really see a way they can move forward with tools like terraform / pulumi / ansible and git

kronin 6y ago

There is significant value in text blob workflows. Requiring the definition of everything that makes up your stack to be stored in a format that is not text adds complexity to the disaster recovery process, not to mention mutation, diffing, reviewing, approving, promoting, etc. For places where a single environment that is updated in place and requires little/no approval to do so, sure. Personally I really like textual definition of infrastructure and configuration, and disagree that it is end days for them.