5 ms·

Working from home for the past 3 months taught me that a lot of my constant tiredness and apathy came from the constant noise you get in an open office. Some p

Working from home for the past 3 months taught me that a lot of my constant tiredness and apathy came from the constant noise you get in an open office. Some people can't handle being productive in a extremely loud, and extremely bright environment. It doesn't matter how much I destroyed my hearing by putting loud music over noise-cancelling headphones, I always felt tired after ~2 hours of work. Open offices seem to start in companies with 10 people, and eventually turn out in floors with hundred of other workers screaming loudly so they can be heard over the existing noise. Ideally, an open office should have noise detectors over the office to remind people to keep their noise down. As a positive, if I were 20 years older I'd probably have started working in cubicles, which have all the negatives of an open office but without any natural sunlight.

majewsky 6y ago
> I destroyed my hearing by putting loud music over noise-cancelling headphones Huh? The point of noise-cancelling headphones (at least to me) is that you can drown out the rest of the noise with fairly quiet music.
- jlokier 6y ago
  Noise-cancelling headphones aren't perfect, and if there's a lot of environmental noise, you'll need to do more than put on quiet music. I've been in places where I wore in-ear phones (they have some passive noise-cancelling effect due to the silicone seal), _and_ with noise-cancelling headphones around those, in attempt to keep the noise out and be able to hear something. Your ears have a sort of physical gain control built in, so if you listen to quiet music the environmental sound (that still gets through the noise-cancelling headphones) will sound louder than if you listen to louder music. I don't recommend actually loud music, as that causes serious damage in the long run. But some modest volume will add some additional masking on top of all the other things done to keep out the environmental sound.
- huffmsa 6y ago
  But the notion that I need to "drown the noise out" is wrong. Quiet should be the default state. If you want to be loud, go find a room where you can be, instead of forcing everyone else to block you out.
  - sloaken 6y ago
    Great in theory, and I agree completely, but invariably you will have a set of people who live for getting attention and they are noisy.
    - huffmsa 6y ago
      Of course, but there are plenty more that only join in if it's easy, and reducing the easy of participation means you only have to think about the attention junkies.
jjeaff 6y ago
It's also possible that higher co2 levels could be making you tired. I have been seeing more and more studies on high co2 levels in crowded offices causing measurable effects.
- dillonmckay 6y ago
  That makes sense, but also seems not too difficult to prove.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    There was a paper or report floating around HN the other day, in which the Navy analyzed data from submarine crews, and could not reproduce the claimed effects of increased CO₂ concentrations in air. With that out there, I worry a definitive answer may not be so easy to establish.
    - dillonmckay 6y ago
      Interesting. I will try to find that sub article. Maybe open-offices that can’t install ERVs can use rebreathers instead? I was reminded of this hackaday project... https://hackaday.com/2018/05/29/monitoring-air-quality-one-sleepy-meeting-at-a-time/ https://hackaday.com/2018/05/29/monitoring-air-quality-one-s...
dillonmckay 6y ago
In our elementary school cafeteria, we had a large traffic light that was sound activated. Reasonable noise levels were green, but if we got too loud it would turn yellow to warn us to quiet down, but if it turned red, it would make a loud buzzing alert, and we were not allowed to speak during the red light. If you did speak during a red light, you were written a ‘ticket’, and would not be going to recess that afternoon. It would turn back to green after a specified time.
- 1_player 6y ago
  That sounds incredibly dystopian. I hate it.
  - snazz 6y ago
    Does it? I much prefer an objective measure of volume instead of a school staff member just writing individual kids up for being subjectively too loud---the machine should have much less bias.
    - randomchars 6y ago
      Why do they need to be quiet? This is in a cafeteria, not in a classroom.
      - snazz 6y ago
        I remember the elementary and middle school cafeterias being host to an occasional screaming match, so I can see why they would want to keep it at a reasonable volume. It might be a little over the top to have the traffic light thing, but it's better than the subjective alternative.
- UncleSlacky 6y ago
  We had a traffic light system as well, but I think it was controlled manually by a staff member, and there wasn't any penalty when it was red. It didn't last long.
- 6y ago
lnsru 6y ago
I last months I found out, that initial stress started with an early search of parking spot on the street. Only managers and other very important persons had their places in a garage. Then this open office with bunch of fresh graduates solving problems and organizing meetings at their tables. No words left... and hiding in meeting rooms, labs and kitchen isn’t solution either. After pandemic is over, I’ll start at 100% remote startup. I can sacrifice 10% of my current pay for better working environment. It’s definitely worth it. Maybe even move to cheaper location one driving hour away, so I can still visit occasionally office.
perrylaj 6y ago
> As a positive, if I were 20 years older I'd probably have started working in cubicles, which have all the negatives of an open office but without any natural sunlight. Having worked in an environment that was essentially 'medium sized rooms with sizable cubicles', I would MUCH prefer that over open-office. In one environment I found particularly effective, cubicles were about 2m x 2m, with separator walls that were around 1.5m tall. This was great for reducing chatter and visual distraction, and offering a modicum of privacy, but readily enabled 'gophering' discussions and impromptu technical discussions. The cubicle walls allowed just enough friction to noticeably minimize social chatter while not preventing fruitful organic discussions. Granted, this was in a nice building, with tons of windows and natural light. On the other end, I've worked in a cubicle-farm call center that had 'cubicles' that were really just shoulder-width dividers on long tables, all crammed into deep, dark cavernous office space. Having only suffered temporary exposure to open office environments, still not sure which I'd pick if given the choice, but it was definitely not a pleasant work experience/environment. Guess point being, not all cubicles/cubicle environments are created equally, so at least for me, preferences are about more than just seating arrangement.
apohn 6y ago
>Working from home for the past 3 months taught me that a lot of my constant tiredness and apathy came from the constant noise you get in an open office. I can completely agree with this. I've had a lot of jobs, and I had one in a big (but crammed) open office space where I sat next to people in roles (e.g. HR) that required them to talk all day. The constant noise, movement, and loss of privacy just sucked out all my energy. Going home after work did nothing to refresh me because it was like recharging a battery that was at -80% to -60%. Ironically, it was the highest paying job I've ever had and also the one where I got the least accomplished in the time I was there due to that office. Mind you, this was in NYC. Going outside into the chaos of NYC noise and traffic felt relaxing compared to that office. >As a positive, if I were 20 years older I'd probably have started working in cubicles, which have all the negatives of an open office but without any natural sunlight. I don't think cubicles have all the negatives of open offices. At one job I had a small cubicles where the dividers were about 5 feet high. Despite all the cubicles around me being people from tech support (who were on the phone all day), I just had a much greater sense of isolation and privacy. I was very productive in that environment. The tech support people were enterprise support people though, so their conversations had lots of pauses while somebody dug through log files, made config changes, etc. Might have been very different if they were support regular consumers. I've seen cubicles where the dividers are chest/shoulder height. Those cubicles might as well be an open office, but at least you have some allocation of personal space on your desk.

majewsky 6y ago

> I destroyed my hearing by putting loud music over noise-cancelling headphones Huh? The point of noise-cancelling headphones (at least to me) is that you can drown out the rest of the noise with fairly quiet music.

jlokier 6y ago
Noise-cancelling headphones aren't perfect, and if there's a lot of environmental noise, you'll need to do more than put on quiet music. I've been in places where I wore in-ear phones (they have some passive noise-cancelling effect due to the silicone seal), _and_ with noise-cancelling headphones around those, in attempt to keep the noise out and be able to hear something. Your ears have a sort of physical gain control built in, so if you listen to quiet music the environmental sound (that still gets through the noise-cancelling headphones) will sound louder than if you listen to louder music. I don't recommend actually loud music, as that causes serious damage in the long run. But some modest volume will add some additional masking on top of all the other things done to keep out the environmental sound.
huffmsa 6y ago
But the notion that I need to "drown the noise out" is wrong. Quiet should be the default state. If you want to be loud, go find a room where you can be, instead of forcing everyone else to block you out.
- sloaken 6y ago
  Great in theory, and I agree completely, but invariably you will have a set of people who live for getting attention and they are noisy.
  - huffmsa 6y ago
    Of course, but there are plenty more that only join in if it's easy, and reducing the easy of participation means you only have to think about the attention junkies.

jjeaff 6y ago

It's also possible that higher co2 levels could be making you tired. I have been seeing more and more studies on high co2 levels in crowded offices causing measurable effects.

dillonmckay 6y ago
That makes sense, but also seems not too difficult to prove.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  There was a paper or report floating around HN the other day, in which the Navy analyzed data from submarine crews, and could not reproduce the claimed effects of increased CO₂ concentrations in air. With that out there, I worry a definitive answer may not be so easy to establish.
  - dillonmckay 6y ago
    Interesting. I will try to find that sub article. Maybe open-offices that can’t install ERVs can use rebreathers instead? I was reminded of this hackaday project... https://hackaday.com/2018/05/29/monitoring-air-quality-one-sleepy-meeting-at-a-time/ https://hackaday.com/2018/05/29/monitoring-air-quality-one-s...

dillonmckay 6y ago

In our elementary school cafeteria, we had a large traffic light that was sound activated. Reasonable noise levels were green, but if we got too loud it would turn yellow to warn us to quiet down, but if it turned red, it would make a loud buzzing alert, and we were not allowed to speak during the red light. If you did speak during a red light, you were written a ‘ticket’, and would not be going to recess that afternoon. It would turn back to green after a specified time.

1_player 6y ago
That sounds incredibly dystopian. I hate it.
- snazz 6y ago
  Does it? I much prefer an objective measure of volume instead of a school staff member just writing individual kids up for being subjectively too loud---the machine should have much less bias.
  - randomchars 6y ago
    Why do they need to be quiet? This is in a cafeteria, not in a classroom.
    - snazz 6y ago
      I remember the elementary and middle school cafeterias being host to an occasional screaming match, so I can see why they would want to keep it at a reasonable volume. It might be a little over the top to have the traffic light thing, but it's better than the subjective alternative.
UncleSlacky 6y ago
We had a traffic light system as well, but I think it was controlled manually by a staff member, and there wasn't any penalty when it was red. It didn't last long.
6y ago

lnsru 6y ago

I last months I found out, that initial stress started with an early search of parking spot on the street. Only managers and other very important persons had their places in a garage. Then this open office with bunch of fresh graduates solving problems and organizing meetings at their tables. No words left... and hiding in meeting rooms, labs and kitchen isn’t solution either. After pandemic is over, I’ll start at 100% remote startup. I can sacrifice 10% of my current pay for better working environment. It’s definitely worth it. Maybe even move to cheaper location one driving hour away, so I can still visit occasionally office.

perrylaj 6y ago

> As a positive, if I were 20 years older I'd probably have started working in cubicles, which have all the negatives of an open office but without any natural sunlight. Having worked in an environment that was essentially 'medium sized rooms with sizable cubicles', I would MUCH prefer that over open-office. In one environment I found particularly effective, cubicles were about 2m x 2m, with separator walls that were around 1.5m tall. This was great for reducing chatter and visual distraction, and offering a modicum of privacy, but readily enabled 'gophering' discussions and impromptu technical discussions. The cubicle walls allowed just enough friction to noticeably minimize social chatter while not preventing fruitful organic discussions. Granted, this was in a nice building, with tons of windows and natural light. On the other end, I've worked in a cubicle-farm call center that had 'cubicles' that were really just shoulder-width dividers on long tables, all crammed into deep, dark cavernous office space. Having only suffered temporary exposure to open office environments, still not sure which I'd pick if given the choice, but it was definitely not a pleasant work experience/environment. Guess point being, not all cubicles/cubicle environments are created equally, so at least for me, preferences are about more than just seating arrangement.

apohn 6y ago

>Working from home for the past 3 months taught me that a lot of my constant tiredness and apathy came from the constant noise you get in an open office. I can completely agree with this. I've had a lot of jobs, and I had one in a big (but crammed) open office space where I sat next to people in roles (e.g. HR) that required them to talk all day. The constant noise, movement, and loss of privacy just sucked out all my energy. Going home after work did nothing to refresh me because it was like recharging a battery that was at -80% to -60%. Ironically, it was the highest paying job I've ever had and also the one where I got the least accomplished in the time I was there due to that office. Mind you, this was in NYC. Going outside into the chaos of NYC noise and traffic felt relaxing compared to that office. >As a positive, if I were 20 years older I'd probably have started working in cubicles, which have all the negatives of an open office but without any natural sunlight. I don't think cubicles have all the negatives of open offices. At one job I had a small cubicles where the dividers were about 5 feet high. Despite all the cubicles around me being people from tech support (who were on the phone all day), I just had a much greater sense of isolation and privacy. I was very productive in that environment. The tech support people were enterprise support people though, so their conversations had lots of pauses while somebody dug through log files, made config changes, etc. Might have been very different if they were support regular consumers. I've seen cubicles where the dividers are chest/shoulder height. Those cubicles might as well be an open office, but at least you have some allocation of personal space on your desk.